24 Oct 08
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Originally posted by epiphinehasAs a mater of interest, why are you imitating Paul? Do you think it is the right thing to do, or is it in an attempt to please God and thus get into heaven? Would you imitate Paul even if you did not believe in God? Do you think you would do the same sort of things even without Paul as a role model, or has Paul shown you the way?
I'm just imitating Paul.
Most importantly, are your actions a result of carefully reasoned logic or more intuitive and part of your nature?
24 Oct 08
Originally posted by FabianFnasHe loves them unconditionally. He loves their true selves in my opinion. He loves Hitler but the person who Hitler has become is not the real Hitler , the Hitler who could have been a painter for example. But God can see through people . In many of the cases you cite there lies a frightened , vengeful child who learned a path of violence and prejudice at an early age. God sees ALL of the person , even the bits we don't see.
Does god love bin Ladin, Hussein, Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe, Bush the way they are? Unconditionally? So, they can/could continue what they were/are doing and still have their place in heaven? Funny...
This is not the same as condoning certain behaviour though. To love someone does not imply that you agree with what they are doing , it's just that you love them because you can see who they really are under all the c**p. Hitler is an extreme example , there are many other examples of other people who on the surface have behaviours and personalities that are disagreeable but if you look a bit harder and deeper there is a more human person underneath.
24 Oct 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterSo do you think that the 'real' Hitler is now in heaven? Why did God allow the 'real' Hitler to become the 'false' Hitler and cause so many problems in the world?
He loves them unconditionally. He loves their true selves in my opinion. He loves Hitler but the person who Hitler has become is not the real Hitler , the Hitler who could have been a painter for example.
But God can see through people . In many of the cases you cite there lies a frightened , vengeful child who learned a path of violence and prejudice at an early age.
Clearly Gods fault for putting him in the wrong environment.
24 Oct 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterHe loves them unconditionally. He loves their true selves in my opinion. He loves Hitler but the person who Hitler has become is not the real Hitler , the Hitler who could have been a painter for example. But God can see through people . In many of the cases you cite there lies a frightened , vengeful child who learned a path of violence and prejudice at an early age. God sees ALL of the person , even the bits we don't see.
He loves them unconditionally. He loves their true selves in my opinion. He loves Hitler but the person who Hitler has become is not the real Hitler , the Hitler who could have been a painter for example. But God can see through people . In many of the cases you cite there lies a frightened , vengeful child who learned a path of violence and prejudice ...[text shortened]... disagreeable but if you look a bit harder and deeper there is a more human person underneath.
There is something about your view that has always confused me. I still cannot figure out in what possibly you think the person actually consists. You have this notion that the cosmos somehow thrusts dispositions, character traits, etc onto the person; whereas I have held that you are notionally confused on that point since these are things that partially constitute the person. You might find it unfortunate, but if a person learns a path of violence and prejudice (even if these things have been largely externally pressed into service), it's still the case that those things are part of who the person really is. (All the more reason to be vigilant and discerning in how we raise our children.) Now, that's not to say that the person cannot change and acquire different traits and commitments; it's not to say that the person cannot hold sincere desires to change; and that's not to say that who the person is has not been largely shaped by environmental factors and antecedents decidedly beyond his control. However, when you say things like "the person who Hitler has become is not the real Hitler" I think these statements are either blatantly false (they could even be construed as contradictory) or you are not being very clear. I go for the latter, and I would maintain that I still don't understand what you mean.
24 Oct 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterAdolf Hitler is certainly lovable. Ask Eva Braun, as an example.
He loves them unconditionally. He loves their true selves in my opinion. He loves Hitler but the person who Hitler has become is not the real Hitler , the Hitler who could have been a painter for example. But God can see through people . In many of the cases you cite there lies a frightened , vengeful child who learned a path of violence and prejudice ...[text shortened]... disagreeable but if you look a bit harder and deeper there is a more human person underneath.
So if even Hitler can be loved by god, unconditionally, then everyone can be loved without any effort of being lovable...?
Can Hitler be loved by jews...?
24 Oct 08
Originally posted by FabianFnasCan Hitler be loved by jews...?
Adolf Hitler is certainly lovable. Ask Eva Braun, as an example.
So if even Hitler can be loved by god, unconditionally, then everyone can be loved without any effort of being lovable...?
Can Hitler be loved by jews...?
------------------------------fabian--------------------------------------
It would take a specially strong and forgiving heart of love to do that , but it may be possible. I certainly imagine there are some enlightened Jews who may have forgiven him (- without condoning what he did).
God however can see things we can't and God's love is different.
24 Oct 08
Originally posted by LemonJelloHitler is an extreme case because the real Hitler may well be lost. He may have lost his soul. Only God knows.
[b]He loves them unconditionally. He loves their true selves in my opinion. He loves Hitler but the person who Hitler has become is not the real Hitler , the Hitler who could have been a painter for example. But God can see through people . In many of the cases you cite there lies a frightened , vengeful child who learned a path of violence and prejudice ...[text shortened]... I go for the latter, and I would maintain that I still don't understand what you mean.
However, Hitler began as an innocent baby just the same as all of us , with the capacity for goodness and humaness that we all have. In essence he was a human being just the same as us but it appears somewhere he lost touch with his humanity.
24 Oct 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterI dont understand you people.
Hitler is an extreme case because the real Hitler may well be lost. He may have lost his soul. Only God knows.
However, Hitler began as an innocent baby just the same as all of us , with the capacity for goodness and humaness that we all have. In essence he was a human being just the same as us but it appears somewhere he lost touch with his humanity.
One minute its predistination and Gods people are chosen long before the universe was made and now we are all born the same?
Which is it ?
24 Oct 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterIs Jaywill right or is he not right?
I am not a fan of predestination. Anyway , that's another thread
He produced verses to show that Gods people were chosen long before the universe was made ... Dunno how. But he said that.
And its in this thread because predistination (if its true) voids your comment about everybody being on equal footing with God at birth.
25 Oct 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterHitler is an extreme case because the real Hitler may well be lost. He may have lost his soul. Only God knows.
Hitler is an extreme case because the real Hitler may well be lost. He may have lost his soul. Only God knows.
However, Hitler began as an innocent baby just the same as all of us , with the capacity for goodness and humaness that we all have. In essence he was a human being just the same as us but it appears somewhere he lost touch with his humanity.
My point has nothing to do specifically with Hitler. The fact is, your view makes precious little sense whether we are talking about Adolf Hitler or Mohandas Gandhi or anyone else for that matter. If you want to say that the Hitler the world ostensibly knew was not the "real" Hitler because what were putatively his traits were actually just extraneous things the cosmos veiled over the "real" Hitler, then...whatever, I guess. But now, under your view, I have no reason to think the Gandhi the world ostensibly knew was the "real" Gandhi: what were putatively Gandhi's traits were also actually extraneous things the cosmos veiled over the "real" Gandhi. You need to rethink and adopt a view that actually makes some sense and is at least consistent in how you view constitution of the person. If Hitler the person is not reducible to the dispositions and character traits and beliefs and values and evaluative commitments, etc., that Hitler the man actually possessed and exemplified; then presumably the same goes for Gandhi or anyone else we might consider.
However, Hitler began as an innocent baby just the same as all of us , with the capacity for goodness and humaness that we all have. In essence he was a human being just the same as us but it appears somewhere he lost touch with his humanity.
So what? How does any of this support your claim that "the person who Hitler has become is not the real Hitler"? Moreover, if under your view, the Hitler we ostensibly knew as a man is not the "real" Hitler; then why would the Hitler we ostensibly knew as a baby be the "real" Hitler? Like I said before, I cannot really figure out in what exactly you think the person actually consists (because you haven't made it adequately clear). But, beyond that, I do expect you to at least be consistent in it.
25 Oct 08
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Originally posted by twhiteheadThe difficulty is when the person forgets their real humanity (Jesus called this losing one's soul). Such a person cannot be reached. However , we are not in a position to see whether a person is so out of touch with themselves that they are unredeemable.
So, knightmeister, if God quite happily loves the 'real' Hitler and the 'real' all of us, then why does he go around judging the 'false' versions? Why must the false me have faith in Jesus? Surely the original and real me is what should be judged?
Think of it like a hard drive that has been corrupted by a virus. If you have eyes to see you can see through all the rubbish to the real original material , but some hard drives are beyond repair.
God sees us a bit like that. He doesn't look at the virus (he knows it is there) and his love is directed to what lies beneath. That's why he can accept us still despite the mess and the faults because he can still see the redeemable self within us.
Repentance is to suddenly realise that one is corrupted by a virus . Having faith and letting Jesus love us helps us get back in touch with who we really are. If you keep looking for problems you will find them , why make it so complicated?
25 Oct 08
Originally posted by Rajk999I think we were all predestined to be with God , it's just that he gave us the freedom to deny that destiny.
Is Jaywill right or is he not right?
He produced verses to show that Gods people were chosen long before the universe was made ... Dunno how. But he said that.
And its in this thread because predistination (if its true) voids your comment about everybody being on equal footing with God at birth.
25 Oct 08
Originally posted by LemonJelloIt truly brings a tear to my eye when you have such expectations. It's like looking into the eyes of
But, beyond that, I do expect you to at least be consistent in it.
a child, an innocence that's ever so beautiful to behold.
My first instinct was to respond in cynical way, but my heart said, 'Let him dream, Nemesio. Let
him dream.'
Nemesio