21 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipC'mon jaywill. Once again, God stipulated that chattel slaves were "for life" and that indentured servants were not. This is no different from chattel slavery vs indentured servants in the US.Considered property? Check.
The murder of which would be avenged (with the death penalty), punished as a capital crime. [b](Exodus 21:20,21)
Slaves for life? Check.
Not at all necessarily (Lev. 25:42-49)
Can be bequeathed to children? Check.
And the Hebrew could likewise be forced ...[text shortened]... the more I'm likely to push back - "not exactly the same - Check" .
That's realism.[/b]
Why do you insist on being so dishonest about this topic? You show your dishonesty at every turn.
The following describes the rules governing Hebrew indentured servitude:
Leviticus 25
39 “ ‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.41Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
47“ ‘If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to a member of the foreigner’s clan, 48they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them: 49An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves. 50They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired worker for that number of years. 51If many years remain, they must pay for their redemption a larger share of the price paid for them. 52If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they are to compute that and pay for their redemption accordingly. 53They are to be treated as workers hired from year to year; you must see to it that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.
54“ ‘Even if someone is not redeemed in any of these ways, they and their children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
The following describes the rules governing non-Hebrew chattel slavery:
Leviticus 25
44“ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life...
They are two different and distinct groups. Is it really all that difficult to keep straight?
21 Mar 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Which of the gods, buddy? Do you have the end all and be all of this story? Maybe he just doesn't buy your own particular version of this bullstuff.
ToO refuses to answer if he believes in the existence of God. That’s why I’d bet dollars to doughnuts he’s an atheist.
Plus, what he claims to believe is so unBiblical and illogical, the only way it makes sense is if he’s an atheist who believes Jesus was only a man and wise teacher.
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Originally posted by @thinkofoneIn this portion of the passage you quoted, to WHICH group is the instruction in verse 50?
They are two different and distinct groups. Is it really all that difficult to keep straight?[/b]
Who is meant by "They" here - the Hebrew or the foreigner? Hint. Look at verse 47.
50 They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired worker for that number of years. 51If many years remain, they must pay for their redemption a larger share of the price paid for them. 52If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they are to compute that and pay for their redemption accordingly. 53 They are to be treated as workers hired from year to year; you must see to it that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.
21 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonship47-55 are the rules that govern Hebrew indentured servants that have sold themselves to non-Hebrews.
In this portion of the passage you quoted, to WHICH group is the instruction in [b]verse 50 for?
Who is meant by "They" here - the Hebrew or the foreigner? Hint. Look at verse 49.
50 They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be ...[text shortened]... that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.[/b]
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Originally posted by @thinkofone<<Why do you insist on being so dishonest about this topic? You show your dishonesty at every turn.[/b]>>
C'mon jaywill. Once again, God stipulated that chattel slaves were "for life" and that indentured servants were not. This is no different from chattel slavery vs indentured servants in the US.
Why do you insist on being so dishonest about this topic? You show your dishonesty at every turn.
The amount of psychological projection you engage in while in this forum is astounding.
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21 Mar 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneRight.
47-55 are the rules that govern Hebrew indentured servants that have sold themselves to non-Hebrews.
That is much more just then anything practiced in the Atlantic Slave Trade.
Take the rampant trafficking of slaves today.
Do you think the owners of these slaves consider any provision for the case that the tables are turned and the owners have to themselves become slaves of these poor forced confined people?
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Originally posted by @apathistThere’s only one true and living God.
Which of the gods, buddy? Do you have the end all and be all of this story? Maybe he just doesn't buy your own particular version of this bullstuff.
The end all and be all of “this story” is the Bible.
He can buy whatever he wants. It’s what he’s selling that I’m not buying.
Originally posted by @sonshipThe " Atlantic Slave Trade" was chattel slavery. Leviticus 25;44-46 was about chattel slavery.
Right.
That is much more just then anything practiced in the Atlantic Slave Trade.
Take the rampant trafficking of slaves today.
Do you think the owners of these slaves consider any provision for the case that the tables are turned and the owners have to themselves become slaves of these poor forced confined people?
The US also had indentured servitude which was separate and distinct from chattel slavery. Leviticus 25:39-43, 47-55 was about indentured servitude which was separate and distinct from chattel slavery.
You disingenuously keep conflating these separate and distinct groups when it serves your purpose. it's dishonest.
Do you think the owners of these slaves consider any provision for the case that the tables are turned and the owners have to themselves become slaves of these poor forced confined people?
For these intents and purposes, what you call "these poor forced confined people" are analogous to what had been foreign born free men in the US back in the days of slavery. They were not "chattel slaves". Chattel slaves were "for life".
22 Mar 18
Originally posted by @fmfWhat is ironic about this is that human trafficking for those purposes is far different from slavery and far more degrading. Of course, we hear of people using their slaves in this manner, but this is one of the lowliest things that a person can really do. By Hebrew law, which allows for a person to practice slavery, one who would do such a thing would have committed adultery, for which the traditional punishment is death, though it can be lesser.
In the developing country in which I live, some people - in light of the reality around them - choose to traffic in sex slaves. I don't care what economic difficulties these slave traders face or what mitigating benefits they gain - or whatever Machiavellian excuses you might seek to make on their behalf - or whatever "lesser of two evils" cliches that might be ...[text shortened]... your 'new far right' dearth of moral principle, slavery is moral depravity. It always has been.
If a man takes in another man who functions as his slave for a period of years because he has zero money or food, that is quite different than trafficking.
22 Mar 18
But do note FMF didn't really want anything to do with my line of discussion. The second that he can't just sit back and view history from a modern perspective, a massive error as noted by Fustel de Coulanges, he doesn't want to talk about history anymore.
He doesn't really want to talk about difficult topics of ethics.
He wants to talk about easy topics of ethics.
He doesn't want to talk abotu ethics how they correspond to historic realities...
He ewants to criticize history for not corresponding to his reality.
Not rigorous; not intellectual; not engaging the topic or the reality of the world.