21 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipNo doubt the US similarly had a prohibition on kidnapping human beings when chattel slavery was still legal. Slaves imported from Africa were considered chattel rather than human beings. Similarly for the chattel slavery condoned in Leviticus 25:44-46.
Okay, I replied. With your astute insight could you tell me why God ordained the death penalty for [b]"the evil" of kidnapping?
How can you force people into slavery without violent kidnapping? Consult the Atlantic Slave Trade and modern Slavery and Sex Trafficking.
"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his ...[text shortened]... m, that thief shall die; so you shall purge THE EVIL from among you." (Deut. 24:7)[/b]
21 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipYou keep spewing nonsense.
If you have not yet answered my question to you - [b] whether or not you honor the EXISTENCE of God in the first place, I have nothing further to talk about with you.
If you can't bring yourself to stand by an honest answer to that question, you and I are at a dead end in exchanging discussion on matters of Spirituality. .[/b]
i am endeavoring to correct the nonsensical misinformation that you keep trying to spread.
Whether or not you choose to engage in discussion is up to you.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Interestingly, the New Testament under God's providence, reserves one book dealing with the subject matter of an escaped slave.
I will not go through the whole book now.
But a little summary helps.
In verse 21 Paul writes slave master Philemon about how he, the Apostle Paul, expects Philemon to conduct himself at the return of the slave Onesimus.
"Having confidence in your obedience, I have written to you, knowing that you will do even beyond the things that I say." (Philemon 21)
What are those things Paul expects Philemon to live up to and even beyond?
1.) that he would realize the returned runaway slave has joined Paul's apostolic team as a helper. (v.11)
2.) that he would treat the returned runaway slave exactly as he would treat Paul himself. (v.17)
3.) that he would receive the returned runaway slave as a Christian brother forever. (v.15)
4.) that whatever was owed Philemon by the returned runaway slave would be charged to Paul's account for Paul to repay. (v.18,19)
5.) that he would realize how useful the returned runaway slave has become to the larger purpose of the Gospel and the Christian church building. (v.11,16)
6.) that he would do these things not out of compulsion or just because Paul says so by his legitimate spiritual authority. He wants it to come out of Philemon's heart voluntarily. (v.14)
7.) that he would realize that Onisimus is as much a spiritual partner to him as Paul is his spiritual partner. (v.17)
8.) that Paul sending Onesimus back was Paul sending back his own heart. (v.12)
9.) that he would realize that JUST as Paul led Philemon to Christ for salvation, he also led Onesimus to Christ for salvation, in the same way. (v.10,19)
10.) that he would refresh Paul's spirit with cooperation. (v.20)
11.) that he would receive his letter not as a charge of command but as an entreaty. ( though he has the authority TO charge him what to do) (v.8,9)
12.) that he would realize that the returned runaway slave Onesimus is Paul's "child". (v.10)
13.) he would realize that Onisemus has become so useful to him in his apostolic work that it is a sacrifice for him to return him to his master Philemon (v.13)
14.) that he would appreciate that the whole situation seems to have been tailor made by God's sovereignty to teach them something (v.15,16)
15.) the he would become profitable also to Paul, by doing as Paul wishes in his treatment of the returning slave. (v.20)
These and other precious points are revealed in this book of Philemon. Thankfully, it didn't just call for the master to send someone to fetch his runaway slave, take him back, and give him a sound beating, even maybe to death.
21 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipLeviticus 25
Interestingly, the New Testament under God's providence, reserves one book dealing with the subject matter of an escaped slave.
I will not go through the whole book now.
But a little summary helps.
In [b]verse 21 Paul writes slave master Philemon about how he, the Apostle Paul, expects Philemon to conduct himself at the return of the slave ...[text shortened]... ne to fetch his runaway slave, take him back, and give him a sound beating, even maybe to death.[/b]
44“ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,..
In the above passage God is depicted as clearly and unambiguously condoning chattel slavery:
Considered property? Check.
Slaves for life? Check.
Can be bequeathed to children? Check.
What's interesting is the number of Christians who feel compelled to defend chattel slavery when faced with this.
Why not simply assert that the depiction of God condoning chattel slavery by the Jews was wrong since it is antithetical to the teachings of Jesus?
- Joined
- 31 Jan 18
- Moves
- 3456
21 Mar 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneWhy not admit you’re an atheist?
Leviticus 25
44“ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them sla ...[text shortened]... doning chattel slavery by the Jews was wrong since it is antithetical to the teachings of Jesus?
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29602
Originally posted by @romans1009Why not admit the OT God condoned slavery?
Why not admit you’re an atheist?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by @thinkofoneYou know what I would do if I were in your shoes?
You keep spewing nonsense.
i am endeavoring to correct the nonsensical misinformation that you keep trying to spread.
Whether or not you choose to engage in discussion is up to you.
I would go out to some field where I could have privacy, raise my voice, and have a good half hour long honest conversation with God about what I don't like in the Bible.
i would give God a benefit of a doubt concerning His existence, and spend some time to pour out my heart to him about what it is I don't like about Him and Jesus Christ.
But I would do so with some amount of reverence with my candidness.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeWhy not admit that the ONLY reason you want to link God with slavery is so that by "guilt by association" you may rationalize to continue in your life of unbelief and sinning.
Why not admit the OT God condoned slavery?
Regardless of any genetic fallacy on my part though,
"condone" is not the right word for me.
Concerning the Ancient Near East widespread custom of servitude God made provisions.
He also made provisions for divorce.
Concerning the foreigners as slaves? I admit a difference, yet still just treatment.
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29602
Originally posted by @sonshipNo. The reason I link God with condoning slavery is that it is right there in the OT.
Why not admit that the ONLY reason you want to link God with slavery is so that by "guilt by association" you may rationalize to continue in your life of unbelief and sinning.
An honest heart would recognize that and not listen to an overworked brain.
(And I wager I sin less than you).
Originally posted by @sonshipIn Leviticus 25:44-46 God is depicted as clearly and unambiguously condoning chattel slavery. That's what links God with chattel slavery.
Why not admit that the ONLY reason you want to link God with slavery is so that by "guilt by association" you may rationalize to continue in your life of unbelief and sinning.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
21 Mar 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneIf you don't even honor the existence of God you really have no reason to condemn slavery as objectively bad.
In Leviticus 25:44-46 God is depicted as clearly and unambiguously condoning chattel slavery. That's what links God with chattel slavery.
Do you believe God exists at all?
Are you a coward?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
21 Mar 18
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeDid God condone kidnapping?
No. The reason I link God with condoning slavery is that it is right there in the OT.
An honest heart would recognize that and not listen to an overworked brain.
(And I wager I sin less than you).
The slavery I am most familiar with, my ancestors having been slaves, involves kidnapping?
21 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipSlavery is wrong. Slavery has always been wrong. Slavery will always be wrong.
If you don't even honor the existence of God you really have no reason to condemn slavery as objectively bad.
Do you believe God exists at all?
Are you a coward?
The following serves as the foundation for the above:
Matthew 7
12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 22
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”