God is for idiots(lol)!!

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Ask and you will receive.

So basically what you're saying is the only way to believe in god is to believe in god.

Originally posted by Nordlys
RBHILL said: "Only God can open your heart to the Gospel". Obviously that would take away choice. If it isn't possible to understand God's message if your heart isn't opened, and God doesn't open my heart, I can't make an informed decision. If God would open everybody's heart so that they could understand the message, they would still have the choice ...[text shortened]... l choice? If you don't get the necessary information, you can't make a real choice.

This is good faith whale. You are asking all the right questions. Initially I would point out that actually its more likely that God intended it to be a two way process , ie a combination of free choices that we make and his activity to open our hearts at the same time. The question is whether a person is working together with God to allow him to open his heart or whether pride is getting in the way. Human nature being what it is you will notice that often people will choose a self destructive path even if it is pointed out that it's not good for them.

I like your cake analogy and in a sense I suppose God does 'hide the cake' in order to create a chance for us to make a choice because who would choose against God if he really revealed himself? So I wonder whether God reveals himself enough for us to make some kind of choice but not too much so that that choice becomes inevitable. I do believe this 'choice' continues after conversion. Faith isn't about saying I understand everything and I'm constantly in touch with God. It's about saying , that's enough for me to go on , I'm happy to take this on further and find out more about God.

I recognise that this is an imcomplete answer but it's a very deep question and I don't have all the answers....maybe if I asked God to open my heart a bit more?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I like your cake analogy and in a sense I suppose God does 'hide the cake' in order to create a chance for us to make a choice because who would choose against God if he really revealed himself?

So you think you have more of a choice if you don't have enough information to make an informed decision than if you have enough information to know that one option is clearly better than the other one? That doesn't make sense to me.

Originally posted by Nordlys
So you think you have more of a choice if you don't have enough information to make an informed decision than if you have enough information to know that one option is clearly better than the other one? That doesn't make sense to me.

I think you would need to define what you mean by 'choice' and 'information' . If you are saying that you want God to completely and utterly reveal himself (information) so that then you can make the most informed choice possible then that would mean the end of the world. The Bible hints that one day this will happen and we will all realise what choice we have made. Until then we live in partial darkness. If you want God to turn all the lights on then think about what that means. After all , faith would dissappear (and so would the physical universe). It would be like betting on a horse when you could already see it winning the race.
We tend to say "come on God show me exactly who you are and then I will choose you" ...God says " I have already given you some big hints at who I am but I don't want to force you , it has to be your choice..if you want a bit more then ask me in faith , if not then that's your choice. I need to remind you though that I'm pretty scary and you might not like to see me in all my glory (remember that bit in the Bible -no-one can see God and live-). If you want to know more then seek and you will find...I promise you this"

Our response tends to be either "yes God I'll give it a go , show me some more" ...or ..."no way God...I'm gonna wait until I know you are real before I'll even give it a go!" Thus , the interplay between our choices and God's revelations. He ain't into forcing anyone!

This is a question of such depth that it's impossible to do justice to it but I hope this helps. I sympathise with you if you feel frustrated with God for not turning more lights on but there is also an onus on us to meet God at least 1% of the way.

Originally posted by rwingett
So basically what you're saying is the only way to believe in god is to believe in god.

Everyone is born with a god concept, some vague outline of a Being. The living God has made Himself available to man through the faith process, based on the revelation of His character as found in Bible doctrine.

Those who wish to know the living God simply need to express the desire to Him, and He will reveal Himself to them.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Everyone is born with a god concept, some vague outline of a Being. The living God has made Himself available to man through the faith process, based on the revelation of His character as found in Bible doctrine.

Those who wish to know the living God simply need to express the desire to Him, and He will reveal Himself to them.

That is simply not true. Everyone is born an atheist and they are subsequently taught to believe in god. A child who was truly raised by wolves would not have any conception of what god was. This can be demonstrated by the fact that people who are raised in christian cultures grow up to mostly become christians. Religion is a culturally reinforced habit.

Originally posted by rwingett
That is simply not true. Everyone is born an atheist and they are subsequently taught to believe in god. A child who was truly raised by wolves would not have any conception of what god was. This can be demonstrated by the fact that people who are raised in christian cultures grow up to mostly become christians. Religion is a culturally reinforced habit.

Not to be overly challenging, but I'd really like to see that study group of people raised by wolves.

I did not assert that all have a concept of the living God; merely that all people--- since man has written his history--- have held one form or another of a belief in a Being(s).

I agree with your last sentence, however.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Not to be overly challenging, but I'd really like to see that study group of people raised by wolves.

I did not assert that all have a concept of the living God; merely that all people--- since man has written his history--- have held one form or another of a belief in a Being(s).

I agree with your last sentence, however.

If all cultures have a belief in a god it is because they existed for tens of thousands of years before mankind developed the means to figure out how things really worked. If it were possible for the earliest cultures to have been scientifically knowledgable there would have never been any need for religion and it would never have developed. But because man's explanatory powers were deficient he invented gods to help him make sense of the world. Those gods became culturally reinforcing concepts. If people are exposed to their culture's concept of god from birth, most likely it's going to rub off on them. But there is no innate concept of god that man carries around with him. It's all learned behavior. If a culture was predominantly atheistic then it's people would most likely grow up to be atheists.

Originally posted by rwingett
If all cultures have a belief in a god it is because they existed for tens of thousands of years before mankind developed the means to figure out how things really worked. If it were possible for the earliest cultures to have been scientifically knowledgable there would have never been any need for religion and it would never have developed. But because man ...[text shortened]... ture was predominantly atheistic then it's people would most likely grow up to be atheists.

Historical suggestions notwithstanding, it remains that even those without religious exposure, per se, possess god concepts.

Personally speaking (not at all claiming my situation as a principle, merely illustrative), prior to conversion, my family was totally without any spiritual influence. There was never any mention of God, creation, nada. Neither did there exist an athiest viewpoint, so you could really call my pre-conversion family 'neutral' with regard to spirituality (although, according to bible doctrine, our position was spiritually dead).

The point is, my quest for the Being was not influenced by previous information, nor by those in authority so persuaded.

And, by the way, your first sentence, "If all cultures..." intimates that there may exist cultures which do not have a form of god-consciousness. We know this to be false. All cultures have god-consciousness.

Originally posted by rwingett
That is simply not true. Everyone is born an atheist and they are subsequently taught to believe in god. A child who was truly raised by wolves would not have any conception of what god was. This can be demonstrated by the fact that people who are raised in christian cultures grow up to mostly become christians. Religion is a culturally reinforced habit.

Religion is a culturally engrained habit but Spirituality isn't. Take away religion and you're still left with Spirituality. God is more than just some concept or tradition. The child born with wolves might still look up at the stars and wonder......he might still feel the mystery.

Originally posted by rwingett
If all cultures have a belief in a god it is because they existed for tens of thousands of years before mankind developed the means to figure out how things really worked. If it were possible for the earliest cultures to have been scientifically knowledgable there would have never been any need for religion and it would never have developed. But because man ...[text shortened]... ture was predominantly atheistic then it's people would most likely grow up to be atheists.

We've figured out an awful lot about the universe but it still doesn't take away from the mystery. The question now is the same as 10,000 years ago. How? Why? From where? In some ways we know an awful lot but in others we know no more than our ancestors. I think religion has and always will develop in response to these questions....unless you think science has answered them?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Religion is a culturally engrained habit but Spirituality isn't. Take away religion and you're still left with Spirituality. God is more than just some concept or tradition. The child born with wolves might still look up at the stars and wonder......he might still feel the mystery.

Spirituality does not require belief in god. That is purely optional.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Historical suggestions notwithstanding, it remains that even those without religious exposure, per se, possess god concepts.

Personally speaking (not at all claiming my situation as a principle, merely illustrative), prior to conversion, my family was totally without any spiritual influence. There was never any mention of God, creation, nada. Neithe ...[text shortened]... form of god-consciousness. We know this to be false. All cultures have god-consciousness.

Buddhists do not believe in a 'creator god.' They have deities (at least now they do), but not one big god. Other eastern religions are also not as god centered as you seem to think.

As for your personal situation, you are a product of your environment. Your family may not have had much to do with christianity, but society around you is permeated with it. If you had grown up in Saudi Arabia with Muslim parents you would be a Muslim today. Your religion of choice is purely an accident of where you were born. So don't kid yourself, your "quest" was directly influenced by all the previous information you had been exposed to. Some would even go so far as to say your choice was determined by it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
We've figured out an awful lot about the universe but it still doesn't take away from the mystery. The question now is the same as 10,000 years ago. How? Why? From where? In some ways we know an awful lot but in others we know no more than our ancestors. I think religion has and always will develop in response to these questions....unless you think science has answered them?

To be awed my the mystery of the universe does not require a belief in god. The universe can be a wonderful place all on its own merits.

Originally posted by rwingett
Spirituality does not require belief in god. That is purely optional.

Nope , Spirituality does not require an explicit belief in a god , but I think it suggests something more than just mechanistic science. I think it's a getting heck of a lot closer to belief in a god than nihilism or atheism.