God is for idiots(lol)!!

Originally posted by knightmeister
If God exists and he is an inclusive God then there must be a way of coming to faith without having to have a theology/philosophy degree.

I have never met anyone who has gone to faith via the route of a theology/philosophy degree.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
why do you guys always need a reason for everything? Reason only works within the current state of the universe. Before the universe (although the term before is, of course, loaded) there was just nothing (or perhaps anything, we cannot know) so it's largely immaterial...

Why is the phrase, "we don't know" such a frightening thing for you - when you are quite willing to say you don't know in that other famous way "goddunit".

Did I say it was frightening? I find it exciting. I don't think it's immaterial because to speculate on the mystery of the uncaused cause because if you think about it it shows that eventually purely rational explanantions are inadequate. I imagine that if one's 'god' so to speak is rationality then it might be scary. I don't know how God 'got there' and I don't think I ever will. It's these other guys who always think there has to be an explanation.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If God exists and he is an inclusive God then there must be a way of coming to faith without having to have a theology/philosophy degree. If it really did require extensive and complex debate (like that which we see on this forum) then what happens to those who have limited intellectual understanding like children or those with learning difficulties . ...[text shortened]... iliation of intellect. God is an equal opportunities employer, let's get used to it.

The biggest problem with Christianity is that it's too simple.
The reason we get into these long drawn out discussions about God and His creation/nature is that the skeptics don't want to accept what is right in front of them, so they redefine words, look the other way, or hide behind something sure to block their sight of God. In short, they don't want to find God but they don't want to feel the guilt they feel for denying Him, so they start long discussions in an attempt to easy their conscience.
All that is needed to find God is a little reason and common sense. And I stress little. All these high highfaluting arguments are just attempts of people to make themselves feel better.

DF

Originally posted by DragonFriend
The biggest problem with Christianity is that it's too simple.
The reason we get into these long drawn out discussions about God and His creation/nature is that the skeptics don't want to accept what is right in front of them, so they redefine words, look the other way, or hide behind something sure to block their sight of God. In short, they don't wan ...[text shortened]... igh highfaluting arguments are just attempts of people to make themselves feel better.

DF

common sense tells me the earth is flat, and the sun revolves around the earth.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I sense a confusion in your mind between the concept of 'eternal' and 'infinity' . Infinity does not imply eternity! The universe might carry on going for ever in this cycle but it would not be eternal because it would still need a cause. The idea of something have absolutely no beginning or end (infinity boths ways if you like) is utterly awe inspirin ...[text shortened]... sound reasoning and philosophical questioning behind the great 'uncaused cause' mystery.

what do you mean that eternity does not correspond with anything natural that you know of? you are not eternal so how could you know anything eternal? you're astounded that i claim i know eternal nature but you can know eternal divinity and that's not astounding? at least mine is theoretically verifiable. and where do you get your religious beliefs if not from your religion? do you honestly expect me to believe that you had fully formed religious beliefs before you found the religion that happened to conform to your beliefs? finally, there can be no sound reasoning that proves an "uncaused cause." if you have some such reasoning, then by all means break it out. however, as a student of philosophy with a special interest in ethics, i have come across no such reasoning.

Originally posted by DragonFriend
All that is needed to find God is a little reason and common sense. And I stress little.

The main reason that I am more athiest than agnostic is because my reason and common sense tell me clearly that there is no God. Why do so many people assume that common sense is common to all people? I have seen creationists make common sense claims about things that make no sense at all to many other people.

Originally posted by nomind
what do you mean that eternity does not correspond with anything natural that you know of? you are not eternal so how could you know anything eternal? you're astounded that i claim i know eternal nature but you can know eternal divinity and that's not astounding? at least mine is theoretically verifiable. and where do you get your religious beliefs if not ...[text shortened]... udent of philosophy with a special interest in ethics, i have come across no such reasoning.

Indeed I do think it is astounding that either of us could know of anything eternal. Christianity makes completely astounding claims , no argument from me there.I think you are being incongruent about your own claims. I've never seen anything that corresponds to eternity in nature . I did have very well formed spiritual beliefs based on experiences that I had had before any exposure to religion , I was brought up as an Atheist. I had a sense of God's presence with me before stepping foot in a church and it was this experience that was the closest I ever felt to eternity, not something 'natural'.

No sound reasoning for an uncaused cause? Ok , here goes(shortened version). A basic premise of rationality and science - cause and effect- everything has a cause, without this premise very little or no science. Therefore, the question what caused life?- three possible answers -(a) nothing - therefore life itself is uncaused and comes out of nothing or (b) something else (but what caused this? etc etc leading to infinite regress) or (c) something that has no cause (uncaused cause) and has no beginning , thus doesn't need a cause itself.

Here's the tricky bit...(a) seems irrational and unlikely and (b) just leads you back to (a) eventually.So (c) seems the most likely and rational since everything we know of needs a cause or explanation suggesting that there is something we don't know of that is eternal.

However,it is also valid to say that life, the universe and everything is 'in and of itself' is uncaused (and thus eternal in its own right) , but I am not aware of any observations upon life, the universe and everything that show this to be likely. Given that our observations on the universe show decay,entropy , beginnings and endings (ie finite things) then at best you might hope for infinity. But eternity? , I think the probability of evidence and reasoning suggests not. But then this is only a guessing game and ultimately I think the truth is beyond rational thought, but is this train of thought not at least reasonable?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Indeed I do think it is astounding that either of us could know of anything eternal. Christianity makes completely astounding claims , no argument from me there.I think you are being incongruent about your own claims. I did have very well formed spiritual beliefs based on experiences that I had had before any exposure to religion , I was brought up as ...[text shortened]... truth is beyond rational thought, but is this train of thought not at least reasonable?

I've never seen anything that corresponds to eternity in nature.
While I agree in function that nothing in nature corresponds to eternal, I believe the very existence of nature/reality suggests the Other who must be eternal.

Or, better, time could not have always existed; something caused time to begin. Before time, eternity.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Indeed I do think it is astounding that either of us could know of anything eternal. Christianity makes completely astounding claims , no argument from me there.I think you are being incongruent about your own claims. I've never seen anything that corresponds to eternity in nature . I did have very well formed spiritual beliefs based on experiences tha ...[text shortened]... truth is beyond rational thought, but is this train of thought not at least reasonable?

i absolutely agree with you that the truth is beyond rational thought. facts, however, are not. i believe that the facts involved with the nature of the universe indicate no such divine hand guiding things, and no need for such a thing. an infinite regress is not inherently bad, it is only bad in certain philosophical situations. when it comes to the nature of the universe, i think that an infinite regress is probably exactly right. i personaly don't buy the whole big-bang theory as an absolute starting point for time and space. but when a scientist says that the universe started with the big-bang, they are not necessarily saying that there was nothing before that, they are saying that so far, science cannot tell us anything about what was there before the big-bang. science has limits and those limits are acknowledged - religious types would do well to recognize the limits of their religion. there is a place for spirituality, but it is not to tell us how the universe is or came to be - it is to tell us how to best live our lives as creatures in that universe.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have never met anyone who has gone to faith via the route of a theology/philosophy degree.

St. Augustine
Dietrich von Hildebrand
Edith Stein

Off the top of my head.

Originally posted by nomind
[b]what do you mean that eternity does not correspond with anything natural that you know of? you are not eternal so how could you know anything eternal?

Can you show me this eternity you speak of? I'm all ears!

Also , "you are not eternal so how could you know anything eternal" oops! doesn't add up! By this reasoning I could not know radiation or gravity because I am not these things , but put me in a nuclear reactor or throw me off a bridge and I'll beg to differ!

Originally posted by nomind
i absolutely agree with you that the truth is beyond rational thought. facts, however, are not. i believe that the facts involved with the nature of the universe indicate no such divine hand guiding things, and no need for such a thing. an infinite regress is not inherently bad, it is only bad in certain philosophical situations. when it comes to the natu ...[text shortened]... e is or came to be - it is to tell us how to best live our lives as creatures in that universe.

You have moved the goal posts on this one. I was trying to get you to explain your seeing of eternity in nature. At least I've had a go at explaining my version of eternity.

Also , what place is it of yours to say that Spirituality has no place in these things? If you think you do have the right to(or place ) to say this then you are guilty of the very thing you criticise.

Originally posted by DragonFriend
All these high highfaluting arguments are just attempts of people to make themselves feel better.
DF

And the belief that there is a God who is on your side and helping you through life's lil' problems is not? It's like the ultimate imaginary friend.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
And the belief that there is a God who is on your side and helping you through life's lil' problems is not? It's like the ultimate imaginary friend.

If God wasn't real, I'd agree with you. But I know for a fact that He is. I know you would probably just dismiss away my knowledge and experience with Him but that doesn't change His existance one iota.
My faith in God isn't blind, as you assume. It's based on logic, reason, and experience.

DF