09 Apr 07
Originally posted by whodeyCheap shot? Perhaps. But since you chose to respond only to that, I will assume you have no good answer for the other points I brought up that you conveniently decided to ignore. The fact remains that there is no way you can reconcile the genocidal behavior of the Old Testament god with the concept of a loving god. Early christian sects like the Marcionites recognized the glaring discrepancy between the two and postulated that they were, in fact, two separate gods.
Whom did Christ kill? Whom did Christ raise a sword against? Whom did he encourage to raise a sword? In fact, he rebuked Peter for raising a sword in his defense. He was not talking about a literal sword in the scripture you provided. What a cheap shot.
09 Apr 07
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why do people, especially christians, seem to need god to equal love? god is love. god is love. god is love. it's like a mantra that helps people sleep at night. it is one sentence in an entire book of books. how can one build their whole doctrine of god based on this? all it seems to do is to invite people to bring up the other attributes of god that seem to fly in the face of this concept.
the greeks and the romans had no issue with this. perhaps it is because the they had several gods, only a couple of whom were delegated as love gods. and even these love gods were primarily interested in themselves. perhaps that is the case with the god of the bible. perhaps he is love. but, perhaps his primary object of his affection is himself.
10 Apr 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSome good points here. I agree that I will need to change my world view, but it is finding and adopting a more suitable world view that is difficult. Perhaps here in lies the problem.
I believe it's possible to love everyone unconditionally without "religion", though it'll take sincerity and, based on your post, a change in your worldview.
It'd also help if you give details on your background, such as age, religious or spiritual views (past and present) and your reasons for doing this.
Also, define "love".
I'm not too sure about the significance of my background here, as I was hoping for a one-approach-to-loving-everyone-that-fits-all solution. But maybe you are right, perhaps we need to find our own path, in which case there isn't much point in asking anyone for guidence. Anyway, I'm 33, was raised in a Christian society (UK) but my parents never pushed me into any religion, and never went to church themselves. I think if there is a god then perhaps it is in all of us in the form of love (hence the "god is love" title), or maybe god is simply the life force in all living things.
Anyway, I don't suppose i will ever work all that out and nor do i want to right now. I just think if I can learn to love everyone then the world will be a better place for me to be in.....surrounded by people who i love. If I loved everyone then I would be a good person, and I would know this and would have a great self image. I would love myself, which is important if you want to be happy.
Define what i mean by "love"? OK , I'll have a go.
To always find the good in others and focus on it and appreciate it.
To forgive the failings of others
To have compassion for everyone, and all the other feelings associated with love (BTW I'm not talking about romantic love and sex etc)
To have respect for everyone, and show this respect by always seeking to listen and understand their viewpoint (though not necessarily agree)
To help and support others as much as possible as long as it's not to my own detriment. This last point is ambiguous and suggests I need to evaluate each and every situation, weighing up the benefits to the person and the detriment to myself before deciding how much love to respond with. Perhaps this is the bit that makes all loving impossible because it requires self sacrifice, which is not self loving....or is it?
Perhaps I will fail because my desire to love everyone comes from my own selfish desire to be happy. But, if i succeeded i could die young with nothing from all the giving I selflessly did. It would take up a lot of energy and kill me so there has to be a balance, but how do i find that balance?
Any comments?
10 Apr 07
Originally posted by twiceaknightThey say love the sinner, hate the sin and that may be the path you seek.
I am that radical. I want to love my enemies. Seriously. How can I do it? where do i start? what strategy or guidelines should I adopt? how should I rationalise and deal with loving the enemy?
somebody give me a starting point!
This is not just important for me, but for all the people I will deal with in the future. Here is your chance to make a ...[text shortened]... if you are shy.
Tell me about what doesn't work if you like. All input will be appreciated!
I don't even try myself. I accept a-holes for what they are and avoid them.
The thing to avoid if you can, is to hate certain people (say, Bush for example) Hate has a way of eating your spirit from within IMO
You seek the impossible IMO. You're human, you make judgements, you set standards, morals, ethics. If you live long enough you'll be betrayed by a "friend", you'll be rejected by someone you think you love, life won't treat you "fairly", someone will rob you, maybe beat you silly for no reason at all .. it happens.
The best you can do IMO is surround yourself with those you truely love and hold them close, But more importantly, RECOGNISE that evil exists and is not worthy of love.
Confront evil with strength .. not love.
10 Apr 07
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Originally posted by jammerThere is truth in what you say. Confront evil with strength. I like that. After all, a God of love would abhor evil and fight it, however, what about the person that is practicing such evil that he loves? Evil left unchecked will explode exponentially. It presents a dileamma to say the least. Also, if evil is the opposite of love then to fight evil is to increase love in the world and vice versa.
They say love the sinner, hate the sin and that may be the path you seek.
I don't even try myself. I accept a-holes for what they are and avoid them.
The thing to avoid if you can, is to hate certain people (say, Bush for example) Hate has a way of eating your spirit from within IMO
You seek the impossible IMO. You're human, you make judgements, you set E that evil exists and is not worthy of love.
Confront evil with strength .. not love.
From a Chrisitan perspective we fight in a spiritual realm just like it says in Ephesians that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickedness in high places. Therefore, the weapons of our warfare is not carnal, but spiritual. This is why Christ came in order to deliver mankind from the bondage of sin.
Having said that, if you read the parable of the Good Samaritan in which Christ was attempting to convey how to love your neighbor, it is interesting to note that the Good Samaritan never once has a conversation with the man in need. In fact, he pays someone else to watch over the man until he recovered, there was not emotional attachment to the stranger in question. So this tells me that love is a choice more than an emotion. If someone harms you in some way the natural reaction is to strike back. Therefore, to love the way Christ teaches us to love would mean to control ones anger is such a situation and choose not to render evil for evil. It then stands to reason that you may not even like the person that you choose to show love to. Agape love is more of a choice than an emotion.
10 Apr 07
Originally posted by jammerwise words.
They say love the sinner, hate the sin and that may be the path you seek.
I don't even try myself. I accept a-holes for what they are and avoid them.
The thing to avoid if you can, is to hate certain people (say, Bush for example) Hate has a way of eating your spirit from within IMO
You seek the impossible IMO. You're human, you make judgements, you set ...[text shortened]... E that evil exists and is not worthy of love.
Confront evil with strength .. not love.
10 Apr 07
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Originally posted by twiceaknightLove must at times be tough. I think these are wise words as well. For example, does love always necessitate giving in to anothers wishes? In fact, what if not giving into their wishes enrages them? The Bible teaches that if you do not discipline your children you are, in fact, not loving them but doing them a great diservice. What do you think about that? You see, I think that loving people is doing what is best for them. However, this is problematic when they become adults and can decide for themselves, I will grant you that. Then you have issues with free will and violating free will. I guess it then comes down to punishing another for violating anothers free will. For example, how does one go about reaching out to a functioning drunk? Sure he is throwing his life away but how does one reach out to him in love and tell him what he is doing is wrong? After all, he is not hurting anyone.
wise words.
10 Apr 07
Originally posted by whodeyIf I take my child out to the woodshed and beat him once, then I am disciplining him. If I take him out to the woodshed and beat him for all eternity, then I am a sadistic monster who should have his children taken away.
Love must at times be tough. I think these are wise words as well. For example, does love always necessitate giving in to anothers wishes? In fact, what if not giving into their wishes enrages them? The Bible teaches that if you do not discipline your children you are, in fact, not loving them but doing them a great diservice. What do you think about tha ...[text shortened]... out to him in love and tell him what he is doing is wrong? After all, he is not hurting anyone.
10 Apr 07
Originally posted by whodeyYour definition of evil is very subjective.
There is truth in what you say. Confront evil with strength. I like that. After all, a God of love would abhor evil and fight it, however, what about the person that is practicing such evil that he loves? Evil left unchecked will explode exponentially. It presents a dileamma to say the least. Also, if evil is the opposite of love then to fight evil is t ...[text shortened]... ike the person that you choose to show love to. Agape love is more of a choice than an emotion.
10 Apr 07
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Originally posted by rwingettSo if hell is nothing more than seperation from the source of all life then what are those who choose to be seperated from him whining about?
If I take my child out to the woodshed and beat him once, then I am disciplining him. If I take him out to the woodshed and beat him for all eternity, then I am a sadistic monster who should have his children taken away.
Honestly, if I have something to offer you then you seek what I have to offer. If you care nothing about what I have to offer you then you will be on your way and miss out on what I have to offer you and all that you will ever have is what you find apart from me.
10 Apr 07
Originally posted by whodeyI agree. You sometimes have to be cruel to be kind, and this presents real problems with knowing what is "right".
Love must at times be tough. I think these are wise words as well. For example, does love always necessitate giving in to anothers wishes? In fact, what if not giving into their wishes enrages them? The Bible teaches that if you do not discipline your children you are, in fact, not loving them but doing them a great diservice. What do you think about tha ...[text shortened]... out to him in love and tell him what he is doing is wrong? After all, he is not hurting anyone.
On the subject of substance abuse, something which has touched my life, I believe that all you can really do is be there for the person. I don't mean bail them out whenever it goes wrong because then they will use you, but be there as a person they can speak honestly with without you judging them. Hopefully they will reach their own conclusions and quit their habit, but unfortnunately they might not.
10 Apr 07
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Originally posted by whodeyThat is one of the more convoluted sentences I've seen in some time. Maybe you should invest in a few commas.
So if hell is nothing more than seperation from the source of all life then what are those who choose to be seperated from him whining about?
Honestly, if I have something to offer you then you seek what I have to offer. If you care nothing about what I have to offer you then you will be on your way and miss out on what I have to offer you and all that you will ever have is what you find apart from me.
Are you really too stupid to see the distinction here? Compare the following two scenarios:
God: Salvation, salvation, step right up, folks, and get yer salvation! Don't miss out! You there, would you like some salvation?
Man: Uh, no thanks. I'm doing just fine as is.
God: OK, have a nice day, sir.
Compare that with the following:
God: Salvation, salvation, step right up, folks, and get yer salvation! Don't miss out! You there, would you like some salvation?
Man: Uh, no thanks. I'm doing just fine as is.
God: Ooooh, wrong answer, my friend. I'm going to have to horribly torture you for all eternity now. Just remember, you made me do it.
Man: Huh?!?
I'm not just missing out on "the good news." I'm being tortured for all eternity for exercising my free will.
10 Apr 07
Originally posted by twiceaknightWell that sounds nice but does it work? Perhaps in some instances but have you ever heard of interventions? Sometimes it takes confrontation and a slap in the face, so to speak.
I agree. You sometimes have to be cruel to be kind, and this presents real problems with knowing what is "right".
On the subject of substance abuse, something which has touched my life, I believe that all you can really do is be there for the person. I don't mean bail them out whenever it goes wrong because then they will use you, but be there as a p ...[text shortened]... hey will reach their own conclusions and quit their habit, but unfortnunately they might not.