19 Jun 06
Originally posted by flyUnitySo, atheists must stick to a rational argument, but christians don't have to - is that what you're saying?
Actually you cant, If I find one ounce of Gold in China, I "know" there is gold in China, and I don't have absolute knowledge of China, but you would have to have absolute knowledge of China to say there is no gold in China,
If I have a Television set, and pictures are coming on it, I "know" that there are radio waves in the air, but in order for you t ...[text shortened]... ssible to prove radio waves exist in the air by just sight. (without seeing a receiver)
19 Jun 06
Originally posted by amannionif we are natural, something greater than us would be supernatural.
Don't get me wrong, I am open to the idea of something greater than me, in fact I'm certain of it. I just don't believe that it is supernatural in any sense.
please explain what you mean as greater.
19 Jun 06
Originally posted by amannionunfortunately, this often seems to be the trend with many xians and atheists alike.
So, atheists must stick to a rational argument, but christians don't have to - is that what you're saying?
i am a xian. thought i'd go ahead and put that out there.
everybody should be rational in their thinking. but rational thought can and usually does give way to passion. this isn't necessarily a bad thing. but after the emotion, one must be able assess the circumstance and confirm it's basis in reality.
for a xian, god is just that. passion can obscure rational thought. this happens with both camps. one because he so desperately wants to prove god exists for his own security. and the other because he so desperately wants to prove god does not exist (or simply choose to not believe in him no matter how irrational) for his own security.
if we all stick to rational thought and check our egos at the door, we might have a simple discussion about the existence of god. i'm not entirely sure this is possible, however.
19 Jun 06
Originally posted by Big MacNo I agree, I don't think it is possible for the most part.
unfortunately, this often seems to be the trend with many xians and atheists alike.
i am a xian. thought i'd go ahead and put that out there.
everybody should be rational in their thinking. but rational thought can and usually does give way to passion. this isn't necessarily a bad thing. but after the emotion, one must be able assess the circumstance a ...[text shortened]... mple discussion about the existence of god. i'm not entirely sure this is possible, however.
Actually I'm intrigued by your view, since it seems to me that you're suggesting your belief in God is grounded in reality. Can you explain that a little more?
I am interested in discussing these points - hence my involvement in these threads.
On the earlier point you asked me about - something greater than myself: I view the universe as being this, and I don't mean in the trivial sense that it is literally greater than me, I mean in a more spiritual sense that is sometimes hard to explain.
19 Jun 06
Originally posted by amannionto clarify...
No I agree, I don't think it is possible for the most part.
Actually I'm intrigued by your view, since it seems to me that you're suggesting your belief in God is grounded in reality. Can you explain that a little more?
I am interested in discussing these points - hence my involvement in these threads.
On the earlier point you asked me about - somethin ...[text shortened]... terally greater than me, I mean in a more spiritual sense that is sometimes hard to explain.
my belief in the existence of a god who is both creative and personal is based in reality.
my belief in the god of the bible is based on (shhhh, don't tell anybody. i don't feel like being chastised so late at night, early in the morning) faith (buzz-word i know).
related to:
i believe in the existence of that old wooden chair that's falling apart. i don't however put much faith in it as being chair (since it does not fit the definition of a chair as something that could support my weight) inspite of how it looks.
does this make sense?
"On the earlier point you asked me about - something greater than myself: I view the universe as being this, and I don't mean in the trivial sense that it is literally greater than me, I mean in a more spiritual sense that is sometimes hard to explain."
this is very interesting. you seem to have a very Hindu outlook. the brahman so to speak.
could you go into more detail on the "spiritual" aspects of the universe?
19 Jun 06
Originally posted by amannionrationale one:
No I agree, I don't think it is possible for the most part.
Actually I'm intrigued by your view, since it seems to me that you're suggesting your belief in God is grounded in reality. Can you explain that a little more?
I am interested in discussing these points - hence my involvement in these threads.
On the earlier point you asked me about - somethin ...[text shortened]... terally greater than me, I mean in a more spiritual sense that is sometimes hard to explain.
inexplicable occurances.
one cannot deny they exist. but one would have to view them from the stand point of mere chance or from the stand point of providential agent.
i would choose the agent.
19 Jun 06
Originally posted by XanthosNZquote/unquote miracles. i avoided using this word on purpose, because i ascribe as a miracle, one could just as easily acribe as a chance occurance or a fluke or a misperception. but, whatever we call them, things can't be explained happen.
What inexplicable occurances?
most obvious to many people would healings. now i'm sure that many of the reported cases are false. but the medical community abounds with stories of cases where the patients were "inexplicably" healed.
are these miracles or is it chance?
is is karma or benevolence?
19 Jun 06
Originally posted by Big MacI have yet to see a report of a 'miracle healing' that wasn't horribly biased or lacking.
quote/unquote miracles. i avoided using this word on purpose, because i ascribe as a miracle, one could just as easily acribe as a chance occurance or a fluke or a misperception. but, whatever we call them, things can't be explained happen.
most obvious to many people would healings. now i'm sure that many of the reported cases are false. but the medical ...[text shortened]... "inexplicably" healed.
are these miracles or is it chance?
is is karma or benevolence?
19 Jun 06
Originally posted by XanthosNZin truth, i have yet to see one at all. either biased, lacking, or genuine.
I have yet to see a report of a 'miracle healing' that wasn't horribly biased or lacking.
but, i've read and heard of reports. most specifically of cancer going into remission with no explanation what so ever.
but, regardless of the motive. regardless of what we "think" of the evidence. there are documented occurances.
the question is, how should one view them?
19 Jun 06
as to the original post.
it is arrogant to assume that one can make a statement of such grand demonstration and assume one needs not warrant for his claim. on both sides. isn't that what a debate is?
aren't both sides supposed to provide evidence for his stance?
yes, i believe in god. but, to say god exists (or does not exist) and expect that to suffice will not do. and again, passion, while good, should be excluded in a debate. one should discuss facts, not suppositions, feelings, and opinions.
19 Jun 06
Originally posted by Big MacYeah, I can see what you mean about Hinduism, although given my views I'm clearly not inot the idea of reincarnation and all the animism aspects that go along with it.
to clarify...
my belief in the existence of a god who is both creative and personal is based in reality.
my belief in the god of the bible is based on (shhhh, don't tell anybody. i don't feel like being chastised so late at night, early in the morning) faith (buzz-word i know).
related to:
i believe in the existence of that old wooden chair that's fall ...[text shortened]... so to speak.
could you go into more detail on the "spiritual" aspects of the universe?
I spend a bit of time with my work in the outdoors, and I get a sense - some people call it the numinous - of my insignificance in the face of the greater universe when I'm outdoors. Lying in my sleeping bag on a cold mountain peak somewhere, watching the stars, sort of reduces your own sense of self-importance, which most of us have to one degree or another.
That's sort of what I mean.
19 Jun 06
Originally posted by Big MacFrom my perspective I'm very sceptical, obviously. I would view 'inexplicable' events as just that - inexplicable.
in truth, i have yet to see one at all. either biased, lacking, or genuine.
but, i've read and heard of reports. most specifically of cancer going into remission with no explanation what so ever.
but, regardless of the motive. regardless of what we "think" of the evidence. there are documented occurances.
the question is, how should one view them?
Sort of like many of the unknown phenomena that people see in the sky sometimes. Using this as an analogy, when someone sees unexplained aerial phenomena, some people will, almost automatically go to the 'alien spacecraft' explanation. Others might choose to go with another - what I would call - more rational explanation.
I don't believe that miracles are anything other than exactly this - people confronted with something they haven't experienced before using the easiest and simplest explanation - which for some is supernatural.
19 Jun 06
Originally posted by Big MacI think that "sin" has a very particular definition, seperate to the one you tried to force upon it. Sin is doing something and being judged wrong by god. When i do something wrong, I don't feel bad because someone says I should, it's only because Ifeel I should. I live by my moral rules, not gods.
did you even read my post?
"sin" was used by the previous writer. i used his word and substituted it for doing something wrong... or against your conscience. i can only assume you have one of those.