I'm confused Manny. Why does Galv75 call you a Catholic? You said straight out that you weren't, right? I am constantly amazed at how people make blanket assumptions (someone lives in Hollywood, ergo they're pagan; someone mentions Jesus as "created" and BOOM! - they must be a JW; "once saved always saved?--Aha! Must be a Baptist of some stripe...) I am a member of a Lutheran Church--one of those Missouri Synod ones. I do NOT believe in Con-substantiation nor Trans-substantiation. I DO look at the holy sacrament of communion as a symbol (that's right--it's not a dirty word 🙂 )of Christ's sacrifice for us. I don't believe any one human being can forgive another with the same authority as God. I'm not convinced Jesus descended into hell, or Hades, or whatever you want to call it. He died on the cross to save us from our sins, and that was sufficient to defeat Satan for all time. {I admit--I have no clue how or why that trade worked, any more than I understand the Triune God or double pre-destination: I simply believe them on faith.} Bottom line, it is presumtuous to the nth degree to decide a person's faith/denomination from a few puffs of logic generated via keystrokes onto this nebulous thing we call the 'Net.
Originally posted by PinkFloydI know Manny is not Catholic. If I did say that somewhere I apologize...
I'm confused Manny. Why does Galv75 call you a Catholic? You said straight out that you weren't, right? I am constantly amazed at how people make blanket assumptions (someone lives in Hollywood, ergo they're pagan; someone mentions Jesus as "created" and BOOM! - they must be a JW; "once saved always saved?--Aha! Must be a Baptist of some stripe...) I ...[text shortened]... puffs of logic generated via keystrokes onto this nebulous thing we call the 'Net.
Originally posted by Conrau KOh my!!!!!! You have the term " No means no"? That same thought would go with the term "Do not" one would think. When you have many scriptures that say "Do not make or have in your posession" an idol or carved image of anything in the heavens or on the earth..how much clearer or simple can that be?
[b]You do remember the Ten Commandments I'm sure. Was this not one of the first set of laws that were given to ones who loved God? Was not one of the commandments to "not make" a carved image of anykind?
I do not in any way question the Ten Commandments but you have surely misunderstood them if you think that a statue of Mary is idolatrous. The law ...[text shortened]... use we do not have idols and could never justify these. What we have are icons.[/b]
No matter what a man or group of men say in a religious setting such as going back to the original founding of the Catholic church or any church for that matter, they never have any right to go contrary to the Bible's clear laws from God.
What has happened is so clearly explained in 2Pet 2:1-3. Rom 16:17,18. Matt 15:3.
So let me ask this.....If Jesus says you go only thru him to pray to God, why does the Catholic church think you need more as in idols to pray thru and then some human behind a screen to go thru to have your sins forgiven at confession? Why has the Cathoilic religion gone so far away from the simple truths and made it so complicated with all the rules and regulations that there are in what should be a simple thing to worship and pray to God?
Especially in the latin countries the church has those poor people so deep in traditions it's unbelieveable what they have to go thru to please the church. Crawling on their knees on cement for hundreds of feet to get their prayers answered. What is that all about?
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Originally posted by galveston75Oh my!!!!!! You have the term " No means no"? That same thought would go with the term "Do not" one would think. When you have many scriptures that say "Do not make or have in your posession" an idol or carved image of anything in the heavens or on the earth..how much clearer or simple can that be?
Oh my!!!!!! You have the term " No means no"? That same thought would go with the term "Do not" one would think. When you have many scriptures that say "Do not make or have in your posession" an idol or carved image of anything in the heavens or on the earth..how much clearer or simple can that be?
No matter what a man or group of men say in a religio ...[text shortened]... es on cement for hundreds of feet to get their prayers answered. What is that all about?
I quite understand what 'no' means. I just do not see how the prohibition of idolatry applies here. God is certainly not condemning craftsmanship. If a person draws a bird or sculpts animal, I doubt God has any issue. Your interpretation here is just silly. The commandment here is clearly concerned with the worship of these icons, treating them as other divinities. As I have explained now several times, Catholics do not worship statues nor ever consider them divinities.
What has happened is so clearly explained in 2Pet 2:1-3. Rom 16:17,18. Matt 15:3.
I agree. And I am sad you have fallen victim to it. Your strange beliefs, that Jesus is the archangel Michael and that blood cannot be donated, are clearly the wacko ideas that the apostles would have spurned.
So let me ask this.....If Jesus says you go only thru him to pray to God, why does the Catholic church think you need more as in idols to pray thru and then some human behind a screen to go thru to have your sins forgiven at confession?
1. You do not pray to Jesus, so I have to wonder whether you go through him at all. Catholics have a highly christo-centric prayer life and the purpose of prayer is always to be at one with him and united to his body. If you do not pray to Jesus however, your claims that you go 'only through him', are baseless. You do not go through him at all.
2. The Catholic Church teaches that there is only one mediator Jesus Christ and through him we are joined with the communion of saints. It is only because Jesus is the mediator that we can pray to the saints. The prayers to the saints are not detours around God but essential to what communion with God entails. If we pray to God, we are in communion with the saints who adore Him in heaven; and if we pray to the saints, we are also in communion with God who dwells in them.
3. Last time we discussed confession, I gave you several biblical quotes which show that confession of some sort was practiced in the early church. You promised to reply but you have not. You have therefore forfeited the right to pose any criticisms about confession.
Especially in the latin countries the church has those poor people so deep in traditions it's unbelieveable what they have to go thru to please the church. Crawling on their knees on cement for hundreds of feet to get their prayers answered. What is that all about?
I am sorry you have such a simplistic prayer life. Spiritual life is not just about 'getting prayers answered'. It is about meditating on God and humbling and emptying oneself. These Catholics do not crawl on their knees in the vain hope their petitions will be granted; they do it out of love for Mary and the desire to follow her example of discipleship. They do it to be closer to God Himself.
Originally posted by Conrau KProhibition means have no idols period. I'll never understand how the Catholics can ignor that law... God does have an issue with it as he has never accepted it's use in any form or for any reason. But that's one of the many things that the Catholic religion has stuck into God's face and said your laws don't mean a thing to us...
[b]Oh my!!!!!! You have the term " No means no"? That same thought would go with the term "Do not" one would think. When you have many scriptures that say "Do not make or have in your posession" an idol or carved image of anything in the heavens or on the earth..how much clearer or simple can that be?
I quite understand what 'no' means. I just do no ...[text shortened]... sire to follow her example of discipleship. They do it to be closer to God Himself.[/b]
Also for your info we never pray to his Father Jehovah unless we pray thru his son Jesus just as Jesus told us to do. And we do it without any help from some dead person such as Mary. Where does ((((( 1 )))) scripture say to use saints or anyone else other then Jesus to pray to God? Nowhere at all....
And still the poor ones in the Latin communities are still being abused by the Catholics that are under domination by their priest. Very very wrong and Jesus would never have any of his followers do such a horrible thing to prove their love for him and his Father.
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Originally posted by galveston75Prohibition means have no idols period.
Prohibition means have no idols period. I'll never understand how the Catholics can ignor that law... God does have an issue with it as he has never accepted it's use in any form or for any reason. But that's one of the many things that the Catholic religion has stuck into God's face and said your laws don't mean a thing to us...
Also for your info we ...[text shortened]... e any of his followers do such a horrible thing to prove their love for him and his Father.
I am not in disagreement. I abhor all idolatry both because it is a rejection of God and a sign of infidelity and because it is just stupid. I just do not see how the statues of Mary in any way are idolatrous. I have no idea why you are unable to explain why it is idolatrous. You either just spew verses at me which do not answer this question or you ignore it entirely.
And still the poor ones in the Latin communities are still being abused by the Catholics that are under domination by their priest. Very very wrong and Jesus would never have any of his followers do such a horrible thing to prove their love for him and his Father.
As I said before, this practice is mostly the initiative of lay people -- not priests (mind you, priests do not spring up from nowhere; they come from the community.) Are you fundamentally unable to remember things posted just a few days ago?
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While God condemns idolatry, He does however often command the people to make images:
"And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).
David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19).
Also Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven images in the temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."
God told Moses to "make a statue of a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).
Originally posted by Conrau KA perfect symbolism for looking to Christ. Funny thing is that not the medical symbol a serpent on a pole?
While God condemns idolatry, He does however often command the people to make images:
"And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cheru ...[text shortened]... d if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).
Manny
Originally posted by Conrau KNone of these were to be worshipped, venerated, prayed thru or to for help, kept in your house etc. You just don't see it do you?
While God condemns idolatry, He does however often command the people to make images:
"And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cheru ...[text shortened]... d if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).
Also any ideas about the Cherubs and what they represented?
Originally posted by galveston75No one was worshiping them at least when God commanded them to look upon the bronze serpent. God told them to do it so how do you take that? Now later on if you know your bible well they started to worship the bronze serpent and I believe it got destroyed.
None of these were to be worshipped, venerated, prayed thru or to for help, kept in your house etc. You just don't see it do you?
Also any ideas about the Cherubs and what they represented?
Manny
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Originally posted by galveston75None of these were to be worshipped, venerated, prayed thru or to for help, kept in your house etc. You just don't see it do you?
None of these were to be worshipped, venerated, prayed thru or to for help, kept in your house etc. You just don't see it do you?
Also any ideas about the Cherubs and what they represented?
Well, Catholics do not worship nor pray through Mary or any of the saints or angels. Are you forgetful, suffer amnesia or simply refuse to read what I write?
Also any ideas about the Cherubs and what they represented?
The cherubs are angels.
Anyway, the point is that God clearly instructed the Hebrews to build statues. This undermines your basic arguments which goes like this OMG, a Latino woman has a statue of women. She must be worshiping idols.' Having a statue is not in itself idolatrous.
Originally posted by Conrau KThe cherubs represented something in relationship with God. No clue at all?
[b]None of these were to be worshipped, venerated, prayed thru or to for help, kept in your house etc. You just don't see it do you?
Well, Catholics do not worship nor pray through Mary or any of the saints or angels. Are you forgetful, suffer amnesia or simply refuse to read what I write?
Also any ideas about the Cherubs and what they represented?
The cherubs are angels.[/b]
But they were never used for worshipping or praying thru so your attempt to justify your use of an idol falls short here.
And I have read every line you've written and there is still absolutely no justfication for having idols wether you worship them or not. But then that's the Catholics problem just like all the other religions around the world that use them in their worship and religious practices. Not much differance there.
Isaiah 44:13-19.
I think it's sad that I show you scripture after scripture as to the plan truth in the Bible why no one should have in their position and idol of any kind...but you have not shown me one as to why we should.
G75 while I'm not a Catholic I grew up with Catholic parents I think you need to lay off a bit because you obviously don't understand Catholicism at all. Catholicism runs the gambit from very conservative to ultra liberal. If you want to measure works the Catholics will match if not exceed what the JW's have done. They have hospitals and care for the less fortunate of the world just as the JW's do. They have schools for higher learning something the JW's frown on. So what is your point with all of this? You deny Christ though you guys say you don't! The JW's have whacky doctrines like blood transfusions and all that bull. It's like the pot calling the kettle Black. There are people who know the bible better than you who are not JW's!!
Manny
Originally posted by menace71First I'm not knocking any good that the Cathoilics do as I don't knock the good anyone does. And I'm sure there are many things I don't understand about the Catholic religion. But I do understand the Bible and the very elemental laws and commands that are in it. If a command is repeated over and over in the Bible with countless examples of ones doing such things were destroyed by God and God actually saying how idols and images disgust him, why is there any doubt that it's wrong? Oh my gosh!!!!!!
G75 while I'm not a Catholic I grew up with Catholic parents I think you need to lay off a bit because you obviously don't understand Catholicism at all. Catholicism runs the gambit from very conservative to ultra liberal. If you want to measure works the Catholics will match if not exceed what the JW's have done. They have hospitals and care for the less f ...[text shortened]... here are people who know the bible better than you who are not JW's!!
Manny
The Catholic religion from their very founding has gone backwards and has let in and formulated so many false beliefs and doctrines into their church from the paganistic trinty belief to a burning hell to reinstituting the clergy class that Jesus totally condemnd and bringing back idol use. Why is there no record of any early Christian using an idol for anything?
Thru so many centuries the Clergy never even allowed their flock to have a Bible because they knew the falseness of their teachings and did not want the truth of those beliefs to be found out. And they wanted to control and have them in subjection, just as Jesus had condemned.
PS..We obvioulsly do not deny Christ as I've just used his name a few times here. And their is nothing wackey about the Bible which we base all our beliefs on unlike the Catholics who still have paganistic beliefs.
Some Catholics do worship idols some don't! Just like I said they run the gambit. I don't think the bible is whacky I think people who twist what it says and make up crazy doctrines that God never said are whacky. Sight exactly were the trinity has a pagan source? Sight it. Do you have archaeological evidence? Do you have historical evidence? JW's always sight this but never anything concrete. Even if you were correct The JW's do not hold all truth! The JW's do not hold the keys to God. The whole JW religion is biased off lies and control of it's subjects. Research the history. So you can slam on other religions but take a closer look at your own. Of course if you question they might dis-fellowship you.
Manny