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12 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillit doesnt matter who transcends who, its not a competition to be the most right. if something is very wrong, its very wrong no matter how much good it does. you seem to talk as if you are in or out, with god or against. you can believe in god, you can love god, but you have to be able to say 'hang on mate, you may be amazing and most of what you do is cool, but that torturing and hurting people business has to stop it f***ing barbaric'.it sounds like you are willing to turn a blind eye to violence as long as there is something in it for you. doesn't sound very christian.
That is not what it sounds like. It sounds like what happens to me personally doesn't change the nature of God one way or the other.
Fortunately, my heart was softened so that I was able to believ ...[text shortened]... at of our Creator. It is more believable that God transcends us, then the other way around.
the problem ive got with you is that you dont seem to recognize that it is barbaric and is a throw back to the past. torture and violence as a method to deal with criminals and dissenters is just plain wrong, especially for the minor crimes that are deemed as sins.
if you were watching a movie about the dark ages and it showed you a viking being tortured by a norman king (please excuse and historical inaccuracies) because the viking worshiped odin and the norman was a christian. you wouldnt be sat there cheering on the norman would you....maybe you would...i wouldnt. the viking doesnt deserve torture for believing in a different god. yet you support this.
if the viking dies and stands before god and gives him a chance to turn to christianity, the viking will say no, because he loves his religion as much as you love yours. if you stood before odin you wouldnt accept him, you would think it was a test of your faith or a trick, you would never turn your back on your god. so it is unfair to expect other faiths to do it, so therefore it is wrong to punish somebody because they had the misfortune of being born in a country that has a different religion.
you are in danger of sounding like a fundamentalist who reasons that its okay to kill all the people on the tube or the towers. he thinks they are all sinners so they are getting whats coming to them. god will deal with them. can you see how dangerously close your thinking is to that level?
it should be everybody's aim to make violence a thing of the past. if we want to be above violence then so should a god.....unless he is a construct of a barbaric age.
12 Jul 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritIf god has a penis, what does he use it on? "Hey, angel, lets make whoopee tonight"....
he wears white robes, his hair is white as wool, and he has a throne, it's like emerald. - daniel 7:9
he is sitting on his throne while wearing long robes - isaiah 6:1
he walks in the garden - genesis 3:8
so, he's got legs and a butt at least, and he needs a place to sit. let's see what else...
well, he has a throne again, but it's sapphire thi ...[text shortened]... ith him and thinks he's wrestling a man- genesis 32
i guess god's penis was covered up.
12 Jul 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieSomeone on this forum once said (visted perhaps, I am not certain) that one interpretation of the Abraham sacrificing Isaac story is that Abraham failed the test and should have refused Gods request. A number of old Testament stories include people arguing with God and questioning his moral decisions and often successfully changing Gods mind.
it doesnt matter who transcends who, its not a competition to be the most right. if something is very wrong, its very wrong no matter how much good it does. you seem to talk as if you are in or out, with god or against. you can believe in god, you can love god, but you have to be able to say 'hang on mate, you may be amazing and most of what you do is cool, but that torturing and hurting people business has to stop it f***ing barbaric'.
12 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfie
it doesnt matter who transcends who, its not a competition to be the most right. if something is very wrong, its very wrong no matter how much good it does. you seem to talk as if you are in or out, with god or against. you can believe in god, you can love god, but you have to be able to say 'hang on mate, you may be amazing and most of what you do is c ant to be above violence then so should a god.....unless he is a construct of a barbaric age.
it should be everybody's aim to make violence a thing of the past. if we want to be above violence then so should a god.....unless he is a construct of a barbaric age.
I sympathize with anyone who is appalled at the thought of unending punishment. I don't think any human has ever lived who has not been horrified at the thought.
You should not think that I have not contemplated this matter deeply and from many angles. I have contemplated the matter. And I may not have satisfactory answers for you problems with eternal perdition.
But there a few things in my consideration.
1.) I have to come to grips with the suggestion that a Perfect Being would not punish forever. I ask myself "Would a God who is perfect in righteousness, punish forever? Is eternal punishment totally incompatible with a perfect being?"
I think eternal punishment would be incompatible with an IMPERFECT being. But eternal punishment is compatible with a Being who is perfect, I think.
If there is no umpire or governing entity transcendent to a Perfect Governor, no higher court of appeal, no higher rightness, no purer justice, then eternal punishment may just be compatitable with such a God.
If God is LESS THAN absolute perfection, then I would agree that eternal punishment is incompatible with that kind of a God. But if God is PERFECT, eternal punishment, though horrible, does make sense to me.
Ecclesiates tells us that there is a TIME for everything. There is a time to reap and a time to sow. There is a time of war and a time of peace. There is a time to love and a time to hate. There is a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing. etc. etc. etc.
I ask myself, is there also a TIME to punish. I conclude that if there is a time for everything there also must be a time when punishment forever is appropriate. Again, this is only compatible with a PERFECT righreous God.
If God is perfect, then it is His responsibilty to let His creatures know with no uncertainty that perpetual rebellion against that which is perfect is a proposition which the rebel cannot win. He must lose.
I defy anyone to argue that there is not longsuffering with God. I defy anyone to try to argue there is no mercy with God. It is exceedingly obvious to me that God is a God of forebearance, mercy, long suffering, forgiveness, even pity.
But with Him there is also a TIME when no further rememdy is available. The revolter CANNOT win. The irreconcilable rebel must lose. He cannot prevail against God.
Eternal punishment is the final state when the revolt against the Perfect and the Ultimate must lose. There is a point with God in which unending vengence is appropriate and right.
Again, if God is less than PERFECT, I would reject the idea. But if God is the PERFECT, though terrible is eternal perdition, it makes sense.
Eternal punishment from an Allah who rewards men with a Paradise of 70 young female virgins to satisfy their sexual lust, does not make sense to me.
But eternal punishment from a God whose goal is to conform people into the exact image of Jesus Christ the Firstborn Son of God ? That makes sense.
The eternal hell of Islam does not seem right to me. The Qurans speaks of men being rewarded in a fleshy paradise with young boys to play with sexually. Such a punisher of a being with THAT kind of reward, makes no sense to me.
But the God of the Bible, the Father of Jesus Christ, Who poured out His innocent and righteous blood for the redemption of all mankind upon only believing, eternal punishment from the PERFECT does sadly make some sense to me.
12 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillSo ultimately the best you can do is say "there is a time for everything therefore even something horrible must have its own time and it is therefore 'right'".
Ecclesiates tells us that there is a TIME for everything. There is a time to reap and a time to sow. There is a time of war and a time of peace. There is a time to love and a time to hate. There is a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing. etc. etc. etc.
I ask myself, is there also a TIME to punish. I conclude that if there is a time for everything there also must be a time when punishment forever is appropriate.
Surely you see the flaw in such logic? Is there a time for God to be unjust? So you see the problem yet? In your scheme of things not everything is possible nor desirable, yet you have chosen to try and justify an undesirable thing with the argument that everything has a time.
The fact is that you cannot justify it, you know you cant justify it, but your whole belief system would collapse if you admitted it, so you have to grasp onto whatever nonsense you can think up.
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12 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillyou use the word 'perfect' to describe god. perfection is subjective.it should be everybody's aim to make violence a thing of the past. if we want to be above violence then so should a god.....unless he is a construct of a barbaric age.
I sympathize with anyone who is appalled at the thought of unending punishment. I don't think any human has ever lived who has not been horrified at the thought.
You s ...[text shortened]... d upon only believing, eternal punishment from the PERFECT does sadly make some sense to me.
would gods system be better or worse if humans were unable to commit sexual violence?
12 Jul 12
2 edits
Originally posted by twhitehead
So ultimately the best you can do is say "there is a time for everything therefore even something horrible must have its own time and it is therefore 'right'".
Surely you see the flaw in such logic? Is there a time for God to be unjust? So you see the problem yet? In your scheme of things not everything is possible nor desirable, yet you have chosen to t ...[text shortened]... d collapse if you admitted it, so you have to grasp onto whatever nonsense you can think up.
The fact is that you cannot justify it, you know you cant justify it, but your whole belief system would collapse
My whole belief system does not collapse because of this discussion.
Do you see your problem ?
I never said I liked the matter of eternal perdition.
And God does not need my feeble defending.
And neither the Christian church nor the Christian Gospel nor the teaching of Christ is going to collapse because someone says "Boy that wasn't a very good explanation of anything."
I am here giving some reasons why I believe as I do. Those truths by no means "collapse" because you don't like my answers.
If the church didn't "collapse" because of the Apostle Peter's boo-boos why do you think after 20 centries of still standing, the Christian faith will collapse with something I write that you don't like?
12 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by twhitehead
So ultimately the best you can do is say "there is a time for everything therefore even something horrible must have its own time and it is therefore 'right'".
Surely you see the flaw in such logic? Is there a time for God to be unjust? So you see the problem yet? In your scheme of things not everything is possible nor desirable, yet you have chosen to t ...[text shortened]... d collapse if you admitted it, so you have to grasp onto whatever nonsense you can think up.
So ultimately the best you can do is say "there is a time for everything therefore even something horrible must have its own time and it is therefore 'right'".
That is right in this case. There is an appropriate time for things God does.
The issue in my mind is the question of whether it is at any time appropriate that a infinite and eternal perfect God should punish without ending. I believe the answer is yes.
God and eternal punishing are not incompatible.
I am persuaded that these are not two mutually exclusive matters.
Furthermore, I can see men copying the concept of eternal punishing. It is hard to believe that men would invent such a concept.
I can see Dante or ancient mythology copying the idea from true revelation.
I doubt that man would ever from his imagination invent such an idea.
I can see men perverting the idea and utlizing the idea but not inventing the idea.
But I could be wrong.
Regardless, the person to blame for the concept of eternal punishing is for the most part by far Jesus. I take seriously that the same mouth which uttered the most comforting words ever heard from human lips, also uttered the stearnest warnings of judgment.
13 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillyour main argument seems to be hinged on the equation of eternal punishment being compatible with a perfect being and vice versa.it should be everybody's aim to make violence a thing of the past. if we want to be above violence then so should a god.....unless he is a construct of a barbaric age.
I sympathize with anyone who is appalled at the thought of unending punishment. I don't think any human has ever lived who has not been horrified at the thought.
You s ...[text shortened]... d upon only believing, eternal punishment from the PERFECT does sadly make some sense to me.
how do you come with this solution? from my view, the exact opposite make more sense. eternal punishment would be the solution of an imperfect being, one who is unable to cure and rehabilitate his subjects.
to place a conscious being in a position of eternal torment, no matter what they've done is inexcusable for any kind of being. it even borders on inexcusable to put a conscious being in any kind of torment for any period of time.
we humans punish each other because we can't find a better solution. we can't cure mental illness, so we lock up individuals who are afflicted with it to the point of violence. we can't cure all psychological illness, so we lock up individuals who suffer from it to the point of violence. the rest of the reasons we come up with to punish people are equally mundane. theft, possession of illegal goods, thought crimes. the list goes on.
the point of the matter is, any kind of punishment is a solution implemented by imperfect beings. and committing violence against transgressors as opposed to separating them from the rest of society (ie: torture vs. incarceration) is itself a mental/psychological illness that is begging for a cure.
the god you believe in is mentally ill and needs to be cured and if that's not possible, he needs to be locked away.
13 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
your main argument seems to be hinged on the equation of eternal punishment being compatible with a perfect being and vice versa.
how do you come with this solution? from my view, the exact opposite make more sense. eternal punishment would be the solution of an imperfect being, one who is unable to cure and rehabilitate his subjects.
to place a c mentally ill and needs to be cured and if that's not possible, he needs to be locked away.
the god you believe in is mentally ill and needs to be cured and if that's not possible, he needs to be locked away
I have no doubt that it is your mind which is sick and warped and twisted.
And it is getting sicker. Its really rather sad to see your decline.
13 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillmy mind would never condemn anyone to an eternity of torment. i don't think you have the capability of discerning mental illness since you are invested in the belief of a mentally deranged being.the god you believe in is mentally ill and needs to be cured and if that's not possible, he needs to be locked away
I have no doubt that it is your mind which is sick and warped and twisted.
And it is getting sicker. Its really rather sad to see your decline.
Originally posted by jaywillYou believe the answer is yes purely because the bible says so. You have zero actual justification for such a belief. You believe because you have to. Hence the rather ridiculous 'there is a time for everything' attempt.
The issue in my mind is the question of whether it is at any time appropriate that a infinite and eternal perfect God should punish without ending. I believe the answer is yes.
I am persuaded that these are not two mutually exclusive matters.
You keep telling us how persuaded you are but you seem totally incapable of explaining why suggesting you don't know yourself.
Furthermore, I can see men copying the concept of eternal punishing. It is hard to believe that men would invent such a concept.
You're clutching at straws gets more and more ridiculous.
As I originally thought, you don't really understand the man made justice system. We punish for two basic reasons: as a deterrent and prevention. As a deterrent we want people to avoid committing 'wrongs' because they are afraid of the consequences. This applies both to the person being punished and onlookers. As a prevention, we don't deliberately punish, but we try to prevent the person from causing more harm by incarcerating him or killing him or maiming him or sending him into exile as the case may be. A basic understanding of this punishment system has evolved in us so by instinct we feel that someone who does wrong must be punished. However in a moral system there is no actual 'eye for an eye' rule and punishment that does not serve either deterrent or prevention is unjustified. So you will find that in many countries, some convicted criminals will actually be treated very lightly for example old people who kill their spouses may simply be put on probation because there is little chance of them committing further crime of the same nature. Also mentally unstable people are put in institutions because it is assumed that the threat of punishment will not work on them so only prevention is used.
However, punishment/judgement at the end of the world, which provides no feedback to the people still living serves neither of the above purposes. So either it has another justifiable purpose or it is merely spiteful on behalf of God. The interesting thing is that because you cannot use the corrective/deterrent/ prevention argument, there is no justification whatsoever for tying the punishment to crimes committed. ie it does not naturally follow that those being punished are being punished because of something they did wrong. In fact, you will find that most Christians readily admit that it has nothing to do with specific crimes committed and is solely based on whether or not you believe in Christ. The question then is why God came up with such a ridiculous criteria.
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13 Jul 12
ive always had jaywill down as one of the most rational christians on this forum and although totally respect his effort and willingness to debate and defend his beliefs, ive been left rather shocked and dumbstruck by his thoughts and opinions. having such little regard and empathy for your fellow man, quite frankly scares me.
i would be interested to know (if there is still anybody else following this thread) if this is the way all or most of christianity thinks about god's violence and punishment? are you all okay with people suffering for eternity?
13 Jul 12
2 edits
Originally posted by stellspalfieSee if popular vote will change God ?
ive always had jaywill down as one of the most rational christians on this forum and although totally respect his effort and willingness to debate and defend his beliefs, ive been left rather shocked and dumbstruck by his thoughts and opinions. having such little regard and empathy for your fellow man, quite frankly scares me.
i would be interest ...[text shortened]... hinks about god's violence and punishment? are you all okay with people suffering for eternity?
While some of you are conetemplating how popular opinion may be used to change the unchanging eternal God some should spend some time to consider God's salvation.
All the sins of the world were judged on that cross, in the Man. He doesn't ask us to grovel and beg. He commands us the believe..
God is not interested in you quaking with terror in the corner or bundling up in the fetal position shivering about hell. He wants you to believe in Christ. He wants us to believe ourselves into the sphere and realm of a living and available Christ.
"Lord Jesus, I come as I am. I believe in You. Lord, help my unbelief."
Christ has undergone separation from God on behalf of the whole world, every sinner.
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (1 John 1;8,9)
Rather than argue about eternal punishment, it is better to understand that God said He is FAITHFUL and even RIGHTEOUS to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That is the good news.
If we come to Christ, God has committed Himself. He will be not only faithful but also do the righteous thing. He MUST forgive us of all sins because we have believed in the the Lamb of God who has taken away the sin of the world on His cross. He is righteous to forgive us. That is more powerful that merciful to forgive us, more sure than kind to forgive us, more secure than pitying to forgive us.
He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive us if we come to Christ confessing our need to be freed from our sins.
So instead of arguing about eternal punishment, I would proclaim the New Testament's door of redemption:
"But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' that is the word which we proclaim,
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:8,9)
Readers, if you spend half a minute contemplating the prospect of being separated from God forever, punished by God for your sins, you should contemplate in the next two minutes the promise of the Gospel -
If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
It is quite effective to lay hold of this promise with thanksgiving -
"Lord Jesus, I thank you that you carried up my sins in your body onto the cross. I believe into you and confess that You are my Lord and Savior. Thankyou for Your availability and Your resurrection life. "
That is a good and effective way to come to Christ.