Originally posted by jaywillyou got this completely wrong. adam and eve were not evicted from the garden for their transgression and they definitely did not take a poison of satanic nature and element.2. adam and eves punishment.
yes they did a bad thing,
Some people do not understand this. I didn't for a long time.
When Adam and Eve took of the tree that was forbidden, they did not only do a bad thing. They became corrupted with a foreign element. They Satanified the human race. They took into themselves an element and we ...[text shortened]... has provided in Christ's redemption and sanctification through indwelling and transformation.
what adam and eve did is take on a poison of godlike element.
genesis 3:22
"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
man became like the gods, with only one thing separating them and this is addressed in the next sentence:
"He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
of course not, because then there would be no distinction between man and the gods, so the solution to this problem follows:
genesis 3:23,24 the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
the problem was that man had become too much like a god; they had become authorities on morality and must be prevented from becoming immortal.
" So man needs an extensive salvation, ..."
yes, man needs salvation from the meddling of biblegod. biblegod stunts the spiritual development of man because he fears man. he fears that one day man will exceed him in greatness.
15 Jul 12
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you got this completely wrong. adam and eve were not evicted from the garden for their transgression and they definitely did not take a poison of satanic nature and element.
what adam and eve did is take on a poison of godlike element.
genesis 3:22
"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
man becam ...[text shortened]... ent of man because he fears man. he fears that one day man will exceed him in greatness.
you got this completely wrong. adam and eve were not evicted from the garden for their transgression and they definitely did not take a poison of satanic nature and element.
The following story of Cain and Abel definitely reveal that an evil power was now lurking at the door of man's heart driving him to sin and murder -
God tells Cain who is seething with resentment, jealousy, and murder -
"And Jehovah said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and his desire is for you, but you must rule over him." (Genesis 4:6,7)
The sin nature is now working in man. And the Apostle Paul tells us that through the disobedience of one Adam, many were "constituted" sinners -
"For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obediance of the One the many will be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:19)
what adam and eve did is take on a poison of godlike element.
Actually in declaring their independence for God, they were brought under the rule of Satan the Original Independent one who has taken the lead in the universe to withdraw from dependence upon God.
The awakening of their conscience was thier new gained knowledge of good and evil.
The God like element was signified by the other tree the tree of life. That was the source of God's divine life which God intended to dispense into man upon man's proper choosing.
genesis 3:22
"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
Yes, this verse does indicate they gained something related to God's nature. That something, I think, is an autonomy and independence. But all other creations in the universe are dependent upon God.
Satan took the lead to corrupt his God given wisdom and thrust for an autonomous and independent rebellion against God. Adam and Eve followed him being deceived to also reach for an rebellious independence from God.
There was created in man, however, a breaking system of the human conscience. And this breaking system awoke into action. Though the human conscience awoke into action there are two matters which this knowledge of good and evil can do little about:
1.) Man has the knowledge of good, but now because he is poisoned with Satan's sinful nature man cannot always perform the good that he knows -
" For I do not the good which I will; but the evil which I do not will, this I practice. " (Rom. 7:19)
2.) Man has the knowledge of evil, but now having been constuted a sinner he has not always the power to resist the evil that he knows -
"I find then the law with me who wills to do the good, that is, the evil is present with me." (Rom. 7:21)
Man knows the good and the evil. Man lacks the life power to perform always the good that he knows. Man lacks the life power to resist the evil that he knows.
"But if what I do not will, this I do, I agree with the law that it is good. Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me." (Rom. 7:17)
Sin dwells in man since the fall. The 7th chapter of Romans diagnoses this fallen man. And we see sin is personified. It dwells as a kind of living evil thing. It seizes opportunity and deceives as a living evil parasitic thing in man -
"For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and throgh it killed me." (v.11)
Sin works out in the sinner as a evil parasitic nature that rebels against the law of God on general principle -
"So then the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and goodd. ... But sin ... that it might be shgown to be sin by working out death in me through that which is good, that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual but I am fleshy, sold under sin. For what I work out, I do not acknowledge; for what I will, this I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do."
Sin is an evil kind of force dwelling in man. Paul says "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not." (v.18)
Just as God warned Cain that sin was crouching at the door of his heart, so Paul expands on the revelation. Sin is a kind of evil living thing holding man back from the good that he knows, and driving man into the evil that he knows.
man became like the gods, with only one thing separating them and this is addressed in the next sentence:
"He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Once man is poisoned with this nature of sin, to live forever in it would be a hell.
So the tree of life is cut off to man's partaking. The two paths were mutually exclusive. Adam was to choose one or the other. God would not have him mixed. God would not have man constituted with the Satanic nature and partake of the divine life. Even if his conscience is awakened, God would not have Adam both fallen into the kingdom of Satan and live eternally in the divine life which God imparts to His sons.
The only reason I today as a sinner can have the Holy Spirit and the divine life of Christ is because of His redemptive death on the cross. In God's sight I am terminated in the cross of Christ. I have been judged in Christ on His cross. Therefore because of Christ's salvation I can partake of the divine and eternal life of God.
The guilt of sin and the power of sin are dealt with in Christ's salvation. He opened the way to the life of God. Otherwise we would be excluded from the eternal life of God forever.
of course not, because then there would be no distinction between man and the gods, so the solution to this problem follows:
genesis 3:23,24 the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Before the disobedience of Adam, man had an everlasting life. Man was innocent and man was in a neutral position. In fact he was already very good as all of God's creation was.
When Adam partook of the tree of death, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - now he must die. And now he is excluded from that portion that he was too choose freely - the divine life of God Himself to be son of God.
The flame of the sword signifies the holy nature of God.
The sword signifies the righteousness of God.
And the cherubim signifies the glory of God.
Now the once innocent and neutral man has a threefold barrier between himself and the eternal purpose of God. He falls short of the glory of God. He falls short of the righteousness of God. And he falls short of the holiness of God. This falling short of these attributes of God because of his joining the rebellion of Satan excludes him from God's eternal purpose and unites him with the miserable destiny of Satan and his angels.
The rest of the Bible is very involved with how Christ comes to fulfill these requirements of salvation. Christ expresses the glory of His Father. Christ is constituted with the holiness of His Father. And Christ measures up to the righteousness of His Father.
Thus Christ removes on our behalf the terrible barrier, the demand of God, that we may be brought back to God's eternal purpose.
The glory, righteousness, and holiness of God are met by this man Jesus Christ on behalf of all the descendents of Adam and Eve. Christ effectively removed, on His cross, the cherubim with the flaming sword guarding the tree of life from man's partaking.
Thanks and praise to the Lord Jesus:
"Oh wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death ?
Thanks be to God, thorugh Jesus Christ our Lord! " (Romans 7:24,25a)
the problem was that man had become too much like a god; they had become authorities on morality and must be prevented from becoming immortal.
" So man needs an extensive salvation, ..."
yes, man needs salvation from the meddling of biblegod. biblegod stunts the spiritual development of man because he fears man. he fears that one day man will exceed him in greatness.
You must have a teaching of demons infesting your poor deluded mind.
This will be my last time reading your rot or responding to it.
15 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillthe fable of cain and abel deconstructed:you got this completely wrong. adam and eve were not evicted from the garden for their transgression and they definitely did not take a poison of satanic nature and element.
The following story of Cain and Abel definitely reveal that an evil power was now lurking at the door of man's heart driving him to sin and murder -
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=147398&page=2#post_2880091
The God like element was signified by the other tree the tree of life. That was the source of God's divine life which God intended to dispense into man upon man's proper choosing.
genesis 3:22
"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
Yes, this verse does indicate they gained something related to God's nature. That something, I think, is an autonomy and independence. But all other creations in the universe are dependent upon God.
Satan took the lead to corrupt his God given wisdom and thrust for an autonomous and independent rebellion against God.
you say that as if you have completely ignored the bible verse you are referring to.
genesis 3:22
"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
it does not say autonomous and independent rebellion against god. it says man has become like god, that he now has moral authority; the ability to distinguish between good and evil.
it then goes on to suggest the only thing now separating man from becoming fully god is immortality, and for that particular reason, he was evicted from the garden.
this is what the bible says. it does not say all that other nonsense you're posting; that long, drawn out, miscarried rationalization of why you think you need christ.
Once man is poisoned with this nature of sin, to live forever in it would be a hell.
it may, but this is not the case in genesis. the case in genesis is that man has gained moral authority like the gods and the gods can't abide by it, so they kicked man out of their social club lest he become immortal.
The only reason I today as a sinner can have the Holy Spirit and the divine life of Christ is because of His redemptive death on the cross.
no, it's because you believe in a fairy tale that's a late invention; one that's inspired by hellenism and completely unrelated to the story of adam and eve.
Before the disobedience of Adam, man had an everlasting life. Man was innocent and man was in a neutral position. In fact he was already very good as all of God's creation was.
no he didn't. he had not yet eaten from the tree of life.
When Adam partook of the tree of death, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - now he must die.
not true at all. there is nothing in the bible that supports this interpretation. he did not partake of the "tree of death." it was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. he must die because he became too much like the gods and the chief didn't like the idea that they might become immortal too.
The flame of the sword signifies the holy nature of God.
The sword signifies the righteousness of God.
And the cherubim signifies the glory of God.
the flaming sword and cherubim signify god's insecurity and fear of man. they are a stark warning with the assertion that any time man attempts to raise himself up, the gods will strike him down. a recurring theme in the bible.
the gods want man stuck to their nipple. feeding him just enough to be useful for some reason or another, but never allow them to become mighty enough to challenge the gods.
The rest of the Bible is very involved with how Christ comes to fulfill these requirements of salvation.
no, christ doesn't exist until the new testament. you can't call the new testament the "rest of the bible" it's just an addendum that the original inventors of the bible don't even accept as canon.
Thus Christ removes on our behalf the terrible barrier, the demand of God, that we may be brought back to God's eternal purpose.
or it could be that christ is a minnion of the devil or satan himself leading you away from the truth and you would never know because all you have is some outdated book of myths.
You must have a teaching of demons infesting your poor deluded mind.
This will be my last time reading your rot or responding to it.
that's a pity. you will deny yourself a truer understanding of the scripture.
you think i have a deluded mind. well mister, you have been cheated. you have been lied to. do you really believe that biblegod will grant you immortality in your current state of mind when the primary reason that he evicted man from his presence was to deny man immortality?
the only way you could ever hope to get into heaven is have a spiritual lobotomy. biblegod will take away your moral authority and turn you into a good little robot. that is what you have to look forward as a reward.
15 Jul 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThe story of the tower of Babel has a similar message. God was afraid that people would be capable of anything and so he took measures to stop them.
it then goes on to suggest the only thing now separating man from becoming fully god is immortality, and for that particular reason, he was evicted from the garden.
15 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadyes. a recurring theme in mesopotamian gods dating all the way back to the sumerian originals. the gods fear that man will become too numerous, they will work together and become mighty like the gods and challenge the authority of the gods.
The story of the tower of Babel has a similar message. God was afraid that people would be capable of anything and so he took measures to stop them.
so periodically they will devise a plan of mischief against man; be it floods, nuclear explosions from space, famine, pestilence, mixing languages, full scale invasions, etc.
the gods sound more like an insecure alien race with a vested interest of keeping humans stupid.
16 Jul 12
1 edit
Some have proposed a God Jealousy theory based upon the words of God in Genesis 3:22 -
And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and live forever.
This has been regarded by some as indication God fear of competition. That is as if God Almighty might possibly be replaced, out done, superceeded. Of course Satan as the Daystar was the main example of a perfect creature attempting to be like God in order to replace "the Most High":
If God did not want man to be like God in the first place He would not have put His entire creation under his dominion and rested at doing so:
"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." (Gen. 1:26)
"And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day ..." ( 2:2a)
This is not the rest from fatique. This is the rest of satisfaction. That is that man is established as the deputy authority over God's creation. If God was terrified of competition He would not have placed man in that position of responsibility.
If He was terrified of competition why would He make man in His image and according to His likeness ? If He was afraid that man would usurp His Godhead, He could have made man entirely UNLIKE His own image and UNLIKE His own likeness.
It is likely that the earth in Genesis is just a starting place. Perhaps the universe as a whole was the realm into which man's deputy rulership would expand.
The premise of the frightened jealous God is made nonsensical because of the revelation of Jesus Christ. Here the word "THEREFORE" in Philippians is very important.
Because this man has done certain things - "THEREFORE" - God has exalted Him to have the highest name in all existence -
"THEREFORE also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him [Christ] the name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee shold bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10,11)
Now let's see what the "THEREFORE" is there for. What are the steps when this Man took in order that God so highly exalted Him ?
"Christ Jesus, Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped, But He emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, becoming in the likeness of men; and having been found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of a cross. THEREFORE also God highly exalted Him ..." (vs.5b-9a)
This passage traces the steps in the humility and even humilation of the Son of God. The culmination of this humbling of the Son of God and subsequent exaltation as a reward puts MAN in place of God - This can be proved by a comparison of two passages about the highest honorable Being -
ISAIAH 45:23 - "I have sworn by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and will not return, That every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall swear. And it shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and stength."
PHILPPIANS 2:9 "THEREFORE also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him [Christ] the name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee shold bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10,11)
Christ did not exalt Himself. The Father exalted Him. And He is the Firstborn among many brothers leading many sons into the glorious expression of the Divine Being. God is eager to exalt the right kind of life to express Himself.
And for that very reason he placed Adam before "the tree of life" that as in the New Testament salvation, we may become "partakers of the divine nature" ( 2 Pet. 1:4)
Thousands of posts could be written on this one point.
16 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillsigh, it was an attack of Gods sovereignty, his right to set standards of morality.
Some have proposed a God Jealousy theory based upon the words of God in [b]Genesis 3:22 -
And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and live forever.
This has been regarded by some as indication God fear of competition. T 1:4) [/b]
Thousands of posts could be written on this one point.[/b]
16 Jul 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYes, it was an attack and a repeat of the old lie of the serpent.
sigh, it was an attack of Gods sovereignty, his right to set standards of morality.
Madness.
The undisputed fact of the matter is that Adam and Eve did not create themselves. They are therefore subject to thier Eternal Creator. But God surely assigned the highest and the best for them.
17 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillyes they were perfect of mind and body and were given direction by god.
Yes, it was an attack and a repeat of the old lie of the serpent.
Madness.
The undisputed fact of the matter is that Adam and Eve did not create themselves. They are therefore subject to thier Eternal Creator. But God surely assigned the highest and the best for them.
17 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfieFAIL, every human is endowed with the capacity to be a free moral agent, sin only
obviously not perfect of mind or they wouldnt have sinned.
arises when one rejects Gods perfect standards and seeks to establish ones own.
Christ came and proved that a perfect man could remain sinless and blameless, even
in the face of extreme persecution and vindicated Gods sovereignty (his right to set
standards of morality) in the process, a point little understood by the uninitiated. That
is why Adam and Eve are considered reprehensible, for they, despite being perfect,
rebelled against Gods sovereignty and sought to establish their own, with horrendous
consequences.
17 Jul 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFAIL - it's a story Rob.
FAIL, every human is endowed with the capacity to be a free moral agent, sin only
arises when one rejects Gods perfect standards and seeks to establish ones own.
Christ came and proved that a perfect man could remain sinless and blameless, even
in the face of extreme persecution and vindicated Gods sovereignty (his right to set
standards of ...[text shortened]... lled against Gods sovereignty and sought to establish their own, with horrendous
consequences.