Graven images, Worship, Commandments

Originally posted by Conrau K
[Indonesian Catholics'] legitimacy rests on your ignorance, not of your [sic] culture, but of Catholic doctrine.

I started this thread BECAUSE of my knowledge of Catholic doctrine - so I am not exactly sure what "ignorance" you are talking about.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
would you kiss the popes ruby encrusted ring on greeting him? just out of reverence?

Yes (although, I am not sure that the Pope's ring is ruby-encrusted. One of my friends in Rome recently had the opportunity to meet the Pope. I will have to ask him.)

Originally posted by FMF
I started this thread BECAUSE of my knowledge of Catholic doctrine - so I am not exactly sure what "ignorance" you are talking about.

Well, your knowledge is deficient. You did not attend a Catholic Mass and you did not witness what Catholicism understands to be worship in the sense of latria.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Yes (although, I am not sure that the Pope's ring is ruby-encrusted. One of my friends in Rome recently had the opportunity to meet the Pope. I will have to ask him.)

its not, i am just messin around 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its not, i am just messin around 🙂

As an aside, it is the custom to kiss the ring of any bishop and to kiss the hand of a priest after his ordination. Personally I am uncomfortable with this and in the one occasion I did meet my archbishop I forgot to do it anyway.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Whether it is the cross or the feet is irrelevant.

I see. It couldn't possibly be idolatry because idolatry is forbidden. As long as, when they kiss the plastic feet, they are not thinking that it's Jesus/God, but they think it's the cross (behind the feet), which - as it happenes - they are NOT kissing, although it's there, then all is ok, doctrinewise.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Well, your knowledge is deficient. You did not attend a Catholic Mass...

That was a linguistic mistake. The word 'Misa' in Indonesian does not translate exactly to 'Mass'. It's an easy mistake to make with a loan word that gets a meaning adjustement. There are plenty of these problems between French and English too. What you said about the communion being prepared on the Thursday was absolutely right. I attended a 'misa Katolik' but NOT a 'Catholic mass' it's true. So pardon me. No knowledge deficiency, I can assure you.

Originally posted by Conrau K
As an aside, it is the custom to kiss the ring of any bishop and to kiss the hand of a priest after his ordination. Personally I am uncomfortable with this and in the one occasion I did meet my archbishop I forgot to do it anyway.

That's only for adults. For minors it's customary to kiss something else.

Originally posted by Conrau K
you did not witness what Catholicism understands to be worship in the sense of latria.

I believe I did. And you did not witness it. So, what does this come down to, do you think?

Originally posted by Conrau K
As an aside, it is the custom to kiss the ring of any bishop and to kiss the hand of a priest after his ordination. Personally I am uncomfortable with this and in the one occasion I did meet my archbishop I forgot to do it anyway.

i dont blame you, in the interests of hygiene, its probably better not to. The scriptures do indicate that early Christians greeted one another with a 'holy kiss', probable a peck on the cheek i should imagine, much in the same way that one greets females to ones home. We shake mens hands and gingerly kiss ladies on the cheek when entering and departing after hospitality say in my own country.

Originally posted by rwingett
That's only for adults. For minors it's customary to kiss something else.

keep it above the belt if you please

Originally posted by FMF
I see. It couldn't possibly be idolatry because idolatry is forbidden. As long as, when they kiss the plastic feet, they are not thinking that it's Jesus/God, but they think it's the cross (behind the feet), which - as it happenes - they are NOT kissing, although it's there, then all is ok, doctrinewise.

So long as their worship is directed at neither the cross nor the feet is it ok doctrinally. The gesture must be directed at the person represented, as the catechism explains:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

The veneration of the image should be proportional to the status of the individual represented. A statue of Jesus should receive the greatest devotion, such as incense and kisses. A statue of Mary should receive the second greatest devotion, kneeling and kissing, but it would be improper to consecrate the Eucharist as a sacrifice to her statue.

Originally posted by FMF
I believe I did. And you did not witness it. So, what does this come down to, do you think?

Well, you did not witness a Catholic Mass could no Mass is ever celebrated on Good Friday. You probably did witness people kneeling before a statue of Mary and kissing a statue of Jesus. But there is a crucial difference between what you saw and how you understood it. A Catholic naturally would understand that the kissing is directed to Jesus Christ not the statue itself. So the charge of idolatry would make no sense.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Well, you did not witness a Catholic Mass could no Mass is ever celebrated on Good Friday.

I have already explained the linguistic mix up. I am bi-lingual. Is that going to be how you dimiss my posts now? Misa. Mass. Catholic. Katolik.

Originally posted by FMF
That was a linguistic mistake. The word 'Misa' in Indonesian does not translate exactly to 'Mass'. It's an easy mistake to make with a loan word that gets a meaning adjustement. There are plenty of these problems between French and English too. What you said about the communion being prepared on the Thursday was absolutely right. I attended a 'misa Katolik' but ...[text shortened]... a 'Catholic mass' it's true. So pardon me. No knowledge deficiency, I can assure you.

I see. The Friday liturgies we would normally call a commemoration of the Passion. Perhaps confusingly, the liturgy is listed in the Romana Missa which only complicates the terminology.