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03 Apr 10
Originally posted by FMFSorry, since there is so much activity on this thread at the moment, I only just reached your post. Point acknowledged.
I have already explained the linguistic mix up. I am bi-lingual. Is that going to be how you dimiss my posts now? Misa. Mass. Catholic. Katolik.
03 Apr 10
Originally posted by Conrau KI understand the thinking of Catholics here, of my own Catholic congregation, of my own Catholic family, and I understand these things very well having been here - on and off - for two decades. You are claiming to understand what they are thinking better than I do? Your whole rebuttal of the 'problem' I stated in the OP is based on your confidence in your ability to climb inside Javanese Catholics' minds better than I can? Interesting. I understand doctrine. I understand 'X is not permitted' according to doctrine. But this "X couldn't have been happening because it is not according to doctrine" is new.
there is a crucial difference between what you saw and how you understood it.
03 Apr 10
Originally posted by Conrau KAnother interesting language point here is the translation of the word "Christian". There is no exact counterpart in Indonesian. We have the word "kristen" which means, I suppose, protestant - but explicitly excludes catholics. The word for catholic is 'katolik'.
Sorry, since there is so much activity on this thread at the moment, I only just reached your post. Point acknowledged.
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03 Apr 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFI am not claiming to understand the Javanese mind; I am claiming to understand the Catholic mind. Whatever cultural differences, there must be some convergence on central doctrinal points. While we exist in very different linguistic and cultural spaces, we still celebrate the same Mass and receive similar catachesis. So when they kneel before the statue of Mary, I imagine they have very similar thoughts to me as when I kneel before a similar statue of Mary. If they didn't, it is hard to see how they could claim to be Catholic at all.
I understand the thinking of Catholics here, of my own Catholic congregation, of my own Catholic family, and I understand these things very well having been here - on and off - for two decades. You are claiming to understand what they are thinking better than I do? Your whole rebuttal of the 'problem' I stated in the OP is based on your confidence in your abilit ut this "X couldn't have been happening because it is not according to doctrine" is new.
Obviously you know your parents. You speak to them and you are best to judge what they think and believe. But if their internal disposition is worship when they kneel before a statue of Mary, then they really are not in communion with the Catholic Church.
03 Apr 10
Originally posted by Conrau KThis is what went through my mind as I declined to kiss the feet of the plastic Jesus doll last night. And this is why I started this thread. Well it's not that I actually think they are NOT Catholics. More a question of how does the theology of what they are doing work? Not what you think they were doing - in accordance with doctrine. But what I think they were doing - in contravention of doctrine.
it is hard to see how they could claim to be Catholic at all.
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03 Apr 10
Originally posted by FMFI am not sure I understand you. Catholics all over the world did just as your parents did. Are you claiming that there is something specifically Javanese that makes their behaviour idolatrous but not others?
This is what went through my mind as I declined to kiss the feet of the plastic Jesus doll last night. And this is why I started this thread. Well it's not that I actually think they are NOT Catholics. More a question of how does the theology of what they are doing work? Not what you think they were doing - in accordance with doctrine. But what I think they were doing - in contravention of doctrine.
03 Apr 10
Originally posted by Conrau KI think you may be turning a blind eye to something. That's all. Your only point - apart from asserting that I am ignorant, which is water off a duck's back to me - seems to be 'Catholic doctrine says such and such therefore it's impossible that they were doing X'. You may think that doctrine creates worldwide uniformity and conformity. My life experience has shown me that there is much diversity and deviation, all around the world. Perhaps to make you 'right', hundreds of millions of people ought to be thrown out of the church. Who knows?
I am not sure I understand you. Catholics all over the world did just as your parents did. Are you claiming that there is something specifically Javanese that makes their behaviour idolatrous but not others?
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03 Apr 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFI think I have been misinterpreted. I have not claimed to know what your parents were doing. At several points, I have acknowledged that quite possibly they were engaged in some kind of idolatrous worship -- with the consequence that they could not properly called Catholic if that were the case. My objection to this, however, is that their external behaviour does not necessarily warrant this conclusion and that in a Catholic understanding is not constitutive of worship. I did not say 'They are Catholic so they must think this'. My opinion is, if they are Catholic, their behaviour need not be idolatrous.
I think you may be turning a blind eye to something. That's all. Your only point - apart from asserting that I am ignorant, which is water off a duck's back to me - seems to be 'Catholic doctrine says such and such therefore it's impossible that they were doing X'. You may think that doctrine creates worldwide uniformity and conformity. My life experience has sh ...[text shortened]... 'right', hundreds of millions of people ought to be thrown out of the church. Who knows?
If you were aware of the Catholic distinction between latria, hyperdulia and dulia, you could not come to such a hasty accusation of idolatry. When you saw your father kneeling before the statue of Mary, you most likely saw what Catholics would term, or at least intuitively understand to be, hyperdulia. The fact that your father knelt before a statue of Mary is not proof that he worships it.
03 Apr 10
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71You see good Manny....Lol.
G75 & RC are coming I can see it now. Their gonna cry foul for sure. 🙂
Manny
Again as I know you guys don't get it because of the traditons that have been imposed and ingrained on you by the Catholics.
But the Bible says in "black and white" not to make or have in your posession any idol that is used for worship of any kind.
But our dear friend Conrau always brings up the same scriptures he always does. But in none of thoses cases were they worshipped or given any veneration of any kind. And they certianly were never kissed or touched or had any emotional affect in their worship of God. And most importantly they were never prayed to or thru to pray to God.
But again the Catholics have made themselves numb to the simple and clear truth's in the Bible and now have this crutch impossed on them and think these dungy idols have to be used to pray to God.
Exodus 20: 4,5.
Lev 26:1.
Ezek 7:20.
Jer 10: 14,15.
Isa 44:13-19.
2Cor 6:16.
1John 5:21.
If idols or images are to be used to worship God....why is there no record from scripture that Noah, Moses, Jesus or any of the apostles ever using them? Can you show us (( 1 )) scripture?
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03 Apr 10
Originally posted by galveston75But our dear friend Conrau always brings up the same scriptures he always does. But in none of thoses cases were they worshipped or given any veneration of any kind.
You see good Manny....Lol.
Again as I know you guys don't get it because of the traditons that have been imposed and ingrained on you by the Catholics.
But the Bible says in "black and white" not to make or have in your posession any idol that is used for worship of any kind.
But our dear friend Conrau always brings up the same scriptures he alw ...[text shortened]... oah, Moses, Jesus or any of the apostles ever using them? Can you show us (( 1 )) scripture?
But Galveston never understands the point I am making. I abhor worship of anyone other than God. Yet every time I engage in debate on this topic, he fails to understand that I am claiming that Catholics do not worship icons and statues.
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03 Apr 10
I would submit that most 'modern' people are just not that sophisticated about symbols in general. That kind of multi-layered understanding is no longer stylish and most 'western' people can no longer even conceive how it works (myself included.) Most of us are literalists not by choice but by incapacity. Maybe we should boast of this or maybe we should be ashamed. Who knows?
03 Apr 10
Originally posted by Conrau KI understand completely what you are saying. But your not understanding the Bible at all. How much clearler can the Bible be when it says to not have an idol or image of anything in your midst?
[b] But our dear friend Conrau always brings up the same scriptures he always does. But in none of thoses cases were they worshipped or given any veneration of any kind.
But Galveston never understands the point I am making. I abhor worship of anyone other than God. Yet every time I engage in debate on this topic, he fails to understand that I am claiming that Catholics do not worship icons and statues.[/b]
You do not understand the scriptures at 2Cor 5:7 & John 4:23, 24 do you?
How about Isa 42:8 or 1Tim 2:5? The one here in 1Tim says NO ONE else is a mediator between humans and God but Jesus. So unless the Catholics have some information that cancels out this scripture, none of your prayers are heard by God if you pray to and thru other people or idols or saints or whatever. ONLY thru Jesus.
But I know what your answer is and because of that your religion has totally lost the whole point of what Jesus is to us and you've pushed him aside and replaced him with Mary and saints and idols and other improper things you give veneration too which only belongs to God.
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04 Apr 10
Originally posted by galveston75I understand completely what you are saying. But your not understanding the Bible at all. How much clearler can the Bible be when it says to not have an idol or image of anything in your midst?
I understand completely what you are saying. But your not understanding the Bible at all. How much clearler can the Bible be when it says to not have an idol or image of anything in your midst?
You do not understand the scriptures at 2Cor 5:7 & John 4:23, 24 do you?
How about Isa 42:8 or 1Tim 2:5? The one here in 1Tim says NO ONE else is a mediator be ...[text shortened]... d saints and idols and other improper things you give veneration too which only belongs to God.
Actually, you have no understanding of what I am saying. You are embarrassingly dumb. How many times do I have to say I am not justifying idols or the worship of anyone other than God? I am not arguing the point further. You are a philistine.
I have at several points shown where God orders the Israelites to make images. I have explained ad nauseum that Catholics do not believe that anyone other than Jesus is mediator (you clearly also lack the simply cognitive skills to distinguish the doctrine of intercession from the use of icons. Two separate issues which only an idiot confuses.)
04 Apr 10
Originally posted by Conrau KWhere in scripture does it explicity allow or condone people queueing up to kiss the feet of a 12 inch plastic Jesus doll?
[b]I understand completely what you are saying. But your not understanding the Bible at all. How much clearler can the Bible be when it says to not have an idol or image of anything in your midst?[/b]
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04 Apr 10
Originally posted by FMFI can find no explicit support for it. What is your point? I am not claiming any Scriptural basis for this practice.
Where in scripture does it explicity allow or condone people queueing up to kiss the feet of a 12 inch plastic Jesus doll?