19 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009I read the whole of John and got these passages where Jesus spoke of keeping this commandments and eternal life.
Read the entirety of John chapter 5.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63 KJV)
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. (John 8:12 KJV)
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:31-32 KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. (John 8:51 KJV)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29 KJV)
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
(John 15:14 KJV)
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. (John 18:37 KJV)
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (John 14:21 KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (John 14:23-24 KJV)
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (John 15:6-7 KJV)
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10 KJV)
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20 Feb 18
Originally posted by @rajk999<<It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63 KJV)>>
I read the whole of John and got these passages where Jesus spoke of keeping this commandments and eternal life.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: [b]the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63 KJV)
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that ...[text shortened]... e; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10 KJV)[/b]
How does this verse endorse a works-based salvation? Jesus says, “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:” Works are done in the flesh.
<<Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. (John 8:12 KJV)>>
And how does this verse endorse a works-based salvation? Are you suggesting that everyone who does good works is following Jesus?
<<Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:31-32 KJV)>>
Just a few verses earlier, this is what Jesus said to the Jews:
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
(John 8:24)
<<Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. (John 8:51 KJV)>>
See above. And this also:
“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.“
(John 6:38-40)
<<My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29 KJV)>>
Beautiful verses, but how you think these verses endorse a works-based salvation is beyond me.
<<Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
(John 15:14 KJV)>>
This begs the question of *how* one keeps Christ’s commands. Jesus answers this earlier in the chapter:
“Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”
(John 15:4-5)
What I’ve been saying all along - first believe in and accept Christ into your heart. Then, the good works follow.
<<Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. (John 18:37 KJV)>>
How does this verse endorse a works-based salvation? It doesn’t.
<<He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (John 14:21 KJV)>>
Look in the beginning of this chapter for what Jesus’ commandments are:
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.”
(John 14:1)
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.“
(John 14:10-12)
<<Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (John 14:23-24 KJV)>>
What are His commands? What are His sayings? Do you just ignore all the times He says to believe on Him and that without abiding in Him (i.e. accepting Him) you can do nothing?
<<If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (John 15:6-7 KJV)>>
Abiding in Christ, in my view, is the same as accepting Christ into one’s heart. And if one has not accepted Christ into his or her heart, the part of the verse that speaks to being cast into the fire is the end result.
<<If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10 KJV)>>
This again goes back to what Jesus’ commandments are - Believe on Him, abide in Him. In other words, believe He is the Son of God and accept Him into your heart.
Originally posted by @romans1009You are lost in mouth worshiping doctrines. Even the clear statements to follow Christ you dont believe. Even when Christ said to do good works you dont believe. Even on judgment day Christ said those who do good works will enter .. even that you dont believe.
<<It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63 KJV)>>
How does this verse endorse a works-based salvation? Jesus says, “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:” Works are done in the flesh.
<<Then spake Jesus again unto them, sa ...[text shortened]... Him, abide in Him. In other words, believe He is the Son of God and accept Him into your heart.
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Originally posted by @rajk999I see you’ve abandoned substance again.
You are lost in mouth worshiping doctrines. Even the clear statements to follow Christ you dont believe. Even when Christ said to do good works you dont believe. Even on judgment day Christ said those who do good works will enter .. even that you dont believe.
Why do you think you don’t understand what it means to believe in Christ and accept Him into your heart? Is it because your sinful and foolish pride thinks you can make yourself righteous (in right standing with God?) Or is it because of another reason?
If good works make you righteous (in right standing with God,) why did Jesus Christ continually say to believe on Him and in Him for eternal life and that someone’s faith had saved them? If good works were needed for salvation, why did Jesus Christ tell the thief on the cross next to Him that he was saved after the thief only expressed belief that He was the Son of God? What do you think it means to “follow Christ?” The performance of good works? So everyone who does good works, atheists, agnostics, Muslims and Jews, are all Christ followers?
You still don’t understand that belief in Christ and accepting Him into your heart makes you righteous (in right standing with God) and that good works follow as evidence that God’s Holy Spirit has indwelt you, started to change your heart and that you are saved.
You are relying on yourself to stop sinning and it’s not working and never will. Those who live in the flesh and not in the Spirit cannot please Him.
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Originally posted by @romans1009<<You are relying on yourself to stop sinning and it’s not working and never will. Those who live in the flesh and not in the Spirit cannot please Him.>>
I see you’ve abandoned substance again.
Why do you think you don’t understand what it means to believe in Christ and accept Him into your heart? Is it because your sinful and foolish pride thinks you can make yourself righteous (in right standing with God?) Or is it because of another reason?
If good works make you righteous (in right standing with ...[text shortened]... not working and never will. Those who live in the flesh and not in the Spirit cannot please Him.
What do you think this verse from Proverbs means?
“He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.”
(Proverbs 2:8)
Does it say the saints preserve their way? Or does it say God preserves their way?
When one believes in and accepts Christ into their heart, God’s Holy Spirit who indwells him or her will “preserve their way.”
You’re relying on yourself and that just doesn’t work.
20 Feb 18
Lets try Pauls letter to the Ephesians. This is an often quoted book by some Christians. They use this book to show teachings which say
- Christians are saved by faith [I have no problem with that]
- Christians are eternally saved.
In this book Paul addresses Christian Saints at the church of Ephesus. The first 3 chapters are dedicated to information on Christ, death and resurrection, and how Christ saved people by his death. Christians are saved by this process.
In the next 3 chapters of Ephesians Paul provides details of the Christian lifestyle ie good works, a life free of sin and evil. This Paul states is a requirement for entry into the Kingdom of God. There is no automatic doing of good works because of the Holy Spirit.
Christians generally do not discuss or quote from the latter 3 chapters, but it is critical information because if it is ignored leads to destruction.
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Originally posted by @rajk999I’ll be happy to refresh my memory of Ephesians by reading it tonight or tomorrow. Do you ever plan on responding to my questions (not only the ones I asked here but across multiple threads?)
Lets try Pauls letter to the Ephesians. This is an often quoted book by some Christians. They use this book to show teachings which say
- Christians are saved by faith [I have no problem with that]
- Christians are eternally saved.
In this book Paul addresses Christian Saints at the church of Ephesus. The first 3 chapters are dedicated to information o ...[text shortened]... latter 3 chapters, but it is critical information because if it is ignored leads to destruction.
21 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009No. Your questions are stupid. I have answered already but you ignore it. I will go with what Jesus said throughout his teachings about good works.. Matt 25 says it clearly.
I’ll be happy to refresh my memory of Ephesians by reading it tonight or tomorrow. Do you ever plan on responding to my questions (not only the ones I asked here but across multiple threads?)
Jesus called the sheep, those who do good works, righteous.
Jesus called the goats, those who do not do good works, unrighteous.
I hear Christ only. nobody else.
Nowhere did Jesus say that the righteous were welcomed into the Kingdom of God because of their faith or Holy Spirit was guiding them, or they believed in their heart etc .. nothing of the sort.
Nowhere did Jesus say that the unrighteous were cast out because they did not believe. They were cast out because they lacked good works.
Its simple.
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21 Feb 18
Originally posted by @rajk999My questions weren’t stupid at all. You didn’t answer them because you couldn’t.
No. Your questions are stupid. I have answered already but you ignore it. I will go with what Jesus said throughout his teachings about good works.. Matt 25 says it clearly.
Jesus called the sheep, those who do good works, righteous.
Jesus called the goats, those who do not do good works, unrighteous.
I hear Christ only. nobody else.
Nowhere did Je ...[text shortened]... because they did not believe. They were cast out because they lacked good works.
Its simple.
Do you think Jesus Christ was/is the Son of God?
I honestly don’t think you or ToO have ever answered this. If you have, apologies for asking again and a simple “Yes” or “No” will suffice.
Thanks.
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21 Feb 18
Originally posted by @rajk999You just never, ever get it.
No. Your questions are stupid. I have answered already but you ignore it. I will go with what Jesus said throughout his teachings about good works.. Matt 25 says it clearly.
Jesus called the sheep, those who do good works, righteous.
Jesus called the goats, those who do not do good works, unrighteous.
I hear Christ only. nobody else.
Nowhere did Je ...[text shortened]... because they did not believe. They were cast out because they lacked good works.
Its simple.
Good works follow belief and faith in Christ and are evidence that the belief is genuine.
Why do you constantly try to separate good works from believing in Christ and accepting Him into your heart?
21 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009This is why they choose works over faith, because to them, it sounds easier than believing anything out of their ken. I think a little less posturing and a little more honest belief in exactly who Jesus the Christ is, is needed here.
My questions weren’t stupid at all. You didn’t answer them because you couldn’t.
Do you think Jesus Christ was/is the Son of God?
I honestly don’t think you or ToO have ever answered this. If you have, apologies for asking again and a simple “Yes” or “No” will suffice.
Thanks.
I suppose if (and a mighty big IF it is) they busy their hands, then the brain stops working and belief in the heart is not required at all. According to them, anyways. Or they can just claim it and not have to do a damned thing, either faith OR works. They miss the entire point of the Gospels.
21 Feb 18
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Originally posted by @rajk999I don't know which of your doctrines I find more offensive, that you assume that works is ALL you need, or that you assume that NO Christians have any works.
No. Your questions are stupid. I have answered already but you ignore it. I will go with what Jesus said throughout his teachings about good works.. Matt 25 says it clearly.
21 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009I answered that question already.
My questions weren’t stupid at all. You didn’t answer them because you couldn’t.
Do you think Jesus Christ was/is the Son of God?
I honestly don’t think you or ToO have ever answered this. If you have, apologies for asking again and a simple “Yes” or “No” will suffice.
Thanks.
21 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009The bible says no such thing.
You just never, ever get it.
Good works follow belief and faith in Christ and are evidence that the belief is genuine.
Why do you constantly try to separate good works from believing in Christ and accepting Him into your heart?
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21 Feb 18
Originally posted by @rajk999It would have been easier and taken less time to simply type “Yes” or “No.”
I answered that question already.
And I don’t believe you have answered that question. The fact that you’re avoiding the question tells me you either don’t believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God, in which case you are ignoring numerous statements from Jesus Himself identifying Himself as such, or you do believe He was the Son of God and are ashamed to admit it. Neither position agrees with Jesus’ teaching.
“For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.“
(Luke 9:26)