Happy 4rth of July Samuel Adams style!!

Originally posted by whodey
I suppose I was thinking of a particular case in the public schools where a girl was raped during a study hall. One of the comments of the teacher was that it was not her job to teach morality to the children.

That teacher should be fired. Teaching morality is part of her job.

Originally posted by whodey
I like what Patrick Henry said in a speech to the Virginia House of Burgesses in May 1765.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not be religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this reason, peoples have been afforded asylum, properity, and freedom of worship ...[text shortened]... same time, however, he credits a Christian based focus as the reason for the nations success.

Patrick Henry is (was) entitled to his opinion.

Originally posted by whodey
Agreed. But you must realize that children are in school on average 8 hours a day for about 40 hours a week. Considering this, don't you think that teachers play a significant role?

Yes they do.

In fact, as the morality of the society further erodes it seems that less and less children have "good" parents to teach them right from wrong.
What morality are we talking about here? I am far from convinced that the morality of society is 'further eroding'.
I think most parents nowadays know right from wrong, and most teach it. The children I know are not noticeably less knowledgeable about right and wrong than the ones I knew as a child.

This makes teachers all the more important in teaching morality.
I must say though that if the parents are not teaching morality, then maybe they have the right to not do so? Should the teacher be contradicting the parents?

Is it possible that you simply don't agree with the parents morality and you want to enforce your own version?

Originally posted by whodey
It seems to me that one morality is soley based upon the laws and whim of society with the underlying thought that it is OK so long as no one sees me doing it and the other morality is based upon never changing expectations with the knowledge that God not only sees your actions, he can read your mind.

Morality based on fear of authority is not the type of morality I would endorse. Morality should be taught by example and the student should come to realize that certain actions are inherently right or wrong regardless of what others may think.

Additionally I am against lying to children even when we think it is for their own good.

Originally posted by whodey
You almost sound as if the teachers morality should be tested before given the job of teaching children. What a novel idea.

Well, I'm not exactly sure, but it should entail some basic knowledge of (hands on, practical) child/human psycology. Not just passing written tests which involve no direct involvment with children at all.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That teacher should be fired. Teaching morality is part of her job.

Originally the shcool district tried to down play the incident, however, when the local media exposed the situation it hit the fan and the school was forced to fire the teacher.

Edit: From what I heard, it costs the school district around $40,000 to go through the process of firing the teacher which may indicate why they hesitated in firing her at first.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes they do.

[b]In fact, as the morality of the society further erodes it seems that less and less children have "good" parents to teach them right from wrong.
What morality are we talking about here? I am far from convinced that the morality of society is 'further eroding'.
I think most parents nowadays know right from wrong, and most teach it. ...[text shortened]... now are not noticeably less knowledgeable about right and wrong than the ones I knew as a child.

What indications would convince you that the morality of any given society is eroding? Is it even measurable in your opinion?

From my own vantage point, the morality of the society in which I live has changed significantly. For example, the attitude about casual sex as being OK has increased, so has the attitude regarding abortion as being OK. In addition, the church attendance rates have drop significantly as well as the culture has been increasingly secularized.

I have always heard that Rome fell in part to its moral decline. Would you not agree? In fact, could this not happen in our own culture?

Originally posted by whodey
I like what Patrick Henry said in a speech to the Virginia House of Burgesses in May 1765.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not be religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this reason, peoples have been afforded asylum, properity, and freedom of worship ...[text shortened]... same time, however, he credits a Christian based focus as the reason for the nations success.

Perhaps in 1765 Christian morality was preferrable to other types, but the world has changed a lot since then.
My basic contention: Christianity is great if it is going to stop someone from commiting heinous crimes, but to think it is the height of moral consideration is a bit misguided.
In my experience it could be, but christianity has also been a cloak for pedophelia, murder,etc. Justified,(for the crazy individuals who perpetuate such terrible acts), in the name of the Church.

Do you think that the U.S. is a "great nation"? IMO it has the potenntial to be. The fullfillment of the constitution COULD create a truly great model for the rest of the world of what a free nation should be.
But the reality is much, much different.
A nation with so much wealth and such a huge underclass, terrible welfare system, an axtremely huge military expenditure,etc,etc has much to answer for, and falls way short of what the founding fathers had intended it to become.

(Bear in mind that my views on the U.S. are based on indirect information recieved through a proganda-based news system. I would be happy for anyone actually living in the U.S. to correct me if I have any of these truisms wrong. Thnx)

Originally posted by twhitehead
This makes teachers all the more important in teaching morality.
I must say though that if the parents are not teaching morality, then maybe they have the right to not do so? Should the teacher be contradicting the parents?

Is it possible that you simply don't agree with the parents morality and you want to enforce your own version?[/b]

And there lies the rub. What does one do when the morality of the parent and teacher conflict?

I suppose that the only grounds that the teacher may have to promote morality is on the sole basis as to what is law. For example, perhaps the father encouraged the boy in question in the study hall to have sex with girls against their will. If so, the teacher would have legal grounds to oppose the parents morality. However, isn't underage sex in general against the law even if it is consensual? My guess is that if the teacher began teaching children that it was immoral to have sex before they are of legal age would incite the wrath from such sources as the parents and the ACLU and the teacher would lose.

Having said that, if I were a teacher I would be scared out of my mind to open my mouth regarding morlality, especially in light of such a secularized and letigious culture. I think this then leads to the eroding morality that we have today.

Originally posted by whodey
Originally the shcool district tried to down play the incident, however, when the local media exposed the situation it hit the fan and the school was forced to fire the teacher.

Edit: From what I heard, it costs the school district around $40,000 to go through the process of firing the teacher which may indicate why they hesitated in firing her at first.

What? only fired? No criminal charges?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Morality based on fear of authority is not the type of morality I would endorse. Morality should be taught by example and the student should come to realize that certain actions are inherently right or wrong regardless of what others may think.

Additionally I am against lying to children even when we think it is for their own good.

Authority devoid of the power to enforce such authority has no authority at all. Such authority would be tantamount to a simple suggestion or plea. Have you ever tried to plea with a 4 year old throwing a tantrum?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
What? only fired? No criminal charges?

Nope, only fired.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Perhaps in 1765 Christian morality was preferrable to other types, but the world has changed a lot since then.
My basic contention: Christianity is great if it is going to stop someone from commiting heinous crimes, but to think it is the height of moral consideration is a bit misguided.
In my experience it could be, but christianity has also been a r anyone actually living in the U.S. to correct me if I have any of these truisms wrong. Thnx)

I feel that the United States has morphed into something other than what the Founding Fathers had invisioned. Their genious was observing that theocracies are nothing more than a tool by which the state could empower itself by saying that God is telling you to do this or that. Abuse is then not far behind. This is in line with what Patrick Henry was saying in that the United States was NOT based upon religion, but established by Christians and was why she became great. Howver, how does a society maintain a moral code when that moral code cannot be placed into law via a theocracy? Perhaps it is not possible and there lies the conundrum.

As far as crimes committed by Christians, I am not saying that this will ever stop. In fact, does not the Christian theology teach that we are a "fallen"? However, I believe one can promote a righteous lifestyle as well as promoting an unrighteous lifestyle.

Originally posted by whodey
And there lies the rub. What does one do when the morality of the parent and teacher conflict?

I suppose that the only grounds that the teacher may have to promote morality is on the sole basis as to what is law. For example, perhaps the father encouraged the boy in question in the study hall to have sex with girls against their will. If so, the teacher ...[text shortened]... zed and letigious culture. I think this then leads to the eroding morality that we have today.

The problem is that "society" treats children as if they have no sexuality.
This misunderstanding needs to be addressed by teachers and parents alike. Just cause they cant procreate doesn't mean they aren't sexual beings.

Parents and teachers should provide information about basic human physicality/development. Then the children/teenagers can make informed choices.
Look, they're going to do it anyway. You might as well tell them the correct information.

One problem is the transition from childhood to teenagehood. A lot of times a bigger problem for the parents than for the youth.
"My child is good. He/she wouldn't do that sort of thing" is an attitude that is short-sighted and a potential problem for any family.
There is a first time for everything.
For example: Would you rather your child get drunk for the first time with their mates, behind their parents backs, possibly exposing themselves to injury OR should they be introduced to alcohol under their parents supervision?
Tough questions, I know. I have a 14 year old daughter. I speak from experience on this one.

Originally posted by whodey
I feel that the United States has morphed into something other than what the Founding Fathers had invisioned. Their genious was observing that theocracies are nothing more than a tool by which the state could empower itself by saying that God is telling you to do this or that. Abuse is then not far behind. This is in line with what Patrick Henry was saying ...[text shortened]... I believe one can promote a righteous lifestyle as well as promoting an unrighteous lifestyle.

Ok.. you speak wisely,yet do you not think that the christian moral code should be in line with a basic humanitarian moral code?
Should we put "Jesus" before basic human rights/morality?

(BTW I think the basic principles of chistianity and humanity can be reconciled,its only when you have forced conversion that problems arise)