Happy Easter

Originally posted by FMF
Unless Abdullah Kareem has evidence that Indonesian Christians invest "pagan meaning" in the crucifix, then I am not sure what his relevance is to what we are discussing.

Abdulla Kareem provides historical evidence for the paganism of the cross, why that should be relevant to a discussion about pagan elements in Christianity is hard to say. Perhaps if your Indonesian friends read it they may invest a different meaning to the paganism in their worship, who can say.

Originally posted by FMF
But I didn't ignore it. I have addressed what Abdullah Kareem said.

you have not addressed a single point that he made, that is the actual content and instead you seek to ignore his content on the basis that your friends have sprinkled their crosses with Holy water.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
...your friends are venerating pagan symbols, irrespective of what it means to them, irrespective of what they invest in their symbolism...

A wooden crucifix, for instance, does not contain any meaning in and of itself. The only meaning that it can have is the meaning that people attach to it. You attach "pagan meaning" to a crucifix. Indonesian Christians don't.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you have not addressed a single point that he made, that is the actual content and instead you seek to ignore his content on the basis that your friend shave sprinkled their crosses with Holy water.

Abdullah Kareem does not present any evidence whatsoever pertaining to the meaning that Indonesian Christians attach to a crucifix.

Originally posted by FMF
A wooden crucifix, for instance, does not contain any meaning in and of itself. The only meaning that it can have is the meaning that people attach to it. You attach "pagan meaning" to a crucifix. Indonesian Christians don't.

and yet it has historical meaning which you seek to ignore because your friends have sprinkled their crosses with Holy water.

Originally posted by FMF
Abdullah Kareem does not present any evidence whatsoever pertaining to the meaning that Indonesian Christians attach to a crucifix.

he presents historical evidence that the cross that your friends venerate is a pagan symbol though.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Perhaps if your Indonesian friends read it they may invest a different meaning to the paganism in their worship, who can say.

So, with this, you appear to be conceding that Indonesian Christians do not invest any "pagan meaning" in the crucifix. You are stating that the meaning they invest is "different" from "paganism".

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
he presents historical evidence that the cross that your friends venerate is a pagan symbol though.

Does he offer any evidence about what the crucifix symbolizes for Indonesians? No he doesn't.

Originally posted by FMF
So, with this, you appear to be conceding that Indonesian Christians do not invest any "pagan meaning" in the crucifix. You are stating that the meaning they invest is "different" from "paganism".

I suspect that those Indonesians who were formerly pagan/christians and who have become Jehovahs Witnesses have invested a pagan meaning to the cross after examining the historical evidence.

Originally posted by FMF
Does he offer any evidence about what the crucifix symbolizes for Indonesians? No he doesn't.

he offers historical evidence that the cross they venerate is a pagan symbol though, evidence which you seek to ignore because your friends have sprinkled their pagan crosses with Holy water. It is the same kind of cross is it not or do Indonesians have a special Indonesian cross?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I suspect that those Indonesians who were formerly pagan/christians and who have become Jehovahs Witnesses have invested a pagan meaning to the cross after examining the historical evidence.

As is their prerogative. I am sure that is what happened to you too. None of this means that Indonesian Christians look upon the crucifix as a "pagan symbol". I have not been referring to Indonesian Jehovahs Witnesses when I have used the term "Indonesian Christians", as I think you know.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
he offers historical evidence that the cross they venerate is a pagan symbol though, evidence which you seek to ignore because your friends have sprinkled their pagan crosses with Holy water. It is the same kind of cross is it not or do Indonesians have a special Indonesian cross?

He has not offered any evidence on its symbolism for Indonesian Christians. If he has, point it out please.

Originally posted by FMF
As is their prerogative. I am sure that is what happened to you too. None of this means that Indonesian Christians look upon the crucifix as a "pagan symbol". I have not been referring to Indonesian Jehovahs Witnesses when I have used the term "Indonesian Christians", as I think you know.

i see they have a special magical Indonesian cross that is different to all other crosses, simply sprinkle some Holy water upon it and it transforms itself from a pagan symbol into a christian one.

Originally posted by FMF
He has not offered any evidence on its symbolism for Indonesian Christians. If he has, point it out please.

if you are unwilling to consider the evidence that the cross which your friends venerate is a pagan symbol then fine, i have provided it and its noted that you are uninterested in the historical evidence. as for me I will waste no more time remonstrating with people who are unwilling to consider evidence for it demonstrates to me that they are unreasonable.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
It is the same kind of cross is it not or do Indonesians have a special Indonesian cross?

Crucifixes here are made from different materials ~ metal, wood etc. ~ and they do not contain any intrinsic meaning. The only meanings that they can have are the meanings that people attach to them.