Hawking: Universe happened without god.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
to your mind who has harder hearts liberal humanists or right-wing christians?

Liberal humanists.

Originally posted by Kepler
[b]So everything does not come from nothing, and it also does not come from
something...okay...where is the middle ground here?

Some things come from some other things, some things don't. There, that's between the two extremes.


I get that people don't like God because we cannot measure God, we cannot
get God to do what we want when we want, w d today, the ship of science will not sink because there is currently a hole.

[/b]Since we were talking about where everything came from in the beginning I
do not think you were following along. Where did everything come from
was a question about the beginning of all things, you don't get to say that
some came from nothing and others came from something...at the start of the
process it was one or the other as soon as one goes first the question has been
addressed. I also think you cannot give me one example where something came
from nothing, but feel free to correct me with an example if you have one or
some.
I guess you cannot follow the conversation so I'll leave you to your thoughts.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Nothing is what it says, nothing.
In programming you can have an undefined variable, it can be anything later
on a word, a number, a book, a library whatever you want, until you put some
value there it is undefined, until anything is put there its an empty place holder
which is much more than nothing. Nothing as soon as you start to define it
give it s ...[text shortened]... omething, take away all something’s, and you have nothing,
anything else is something.
Kelly

In our universe there is no such thing as 'nothing' in the sense you want it to be.

If the big bang is the correct description of how the universe got here, it did not come from 'nothing' in the sense you think of that word. It should read more like 'nothing visible'. There is a world of difference in those two words.

The vacuum of outer space is not 'nothing', since it bends and controls the movement of planets orbiting stars and moons orbiting planets. That's all that gravity is, a bending of space.

Black holes bend space around it so deeply that even light cannot escape.
Where the escape velocity of the black hole is greater than the speed of light so nothing much gets out, light included.

It is the ultimate vacuum cleaner!

BECAUSE mass bends space, in the case of black holes, bending space almost like a pretzel.

So whatever happened in the beginning, it was not from 'nothing'. That 'nothing' might be another dimension with its own rules, could be something else entirely, but one thing for sure, it is not 'nothing'.

Originally posted by sonhouse
In our universe there is no such thing as 'nothing' in the sense you want it to be.

If the big bang is the correct description of how the universe got here, it did not come from 'nothing' in the sense you think of that word. It should read more like 'nothing visible'. There is a world of difference in those two words.

The vacuum of outer space is not s, could be something else entirely, but one thing for sure, it is not 'nothing'.

so are you saying that it all came from the vacuum of outer space? And gravity came from Black holes in outer spece? And Black holes are the ultimate vacuum clearner of outer space? Sounds like you are speced out on some sci-fi faily tale.

P.S. Why not call it the Great Black Hole Vacuum Cleaner Theory of the Origin of the Universe?

Originally posted by sonhouse
In our universe there is no such thing as 'nothing' in the sense you want it to be.

If the big bang is the correct description of how the universe got here, it did not come from 'nothing' in the sense you think of that word. It should read more like 'nothing visible'. There is a world of difference in those two words.

The vacuum of outer space is not ...[text shortened]... s, could be something else entirely, but one thing for sure, it is not 'nothing'.

Nothing visible, what like God? Please, when I asked where everything came
from I was asking about all things, not some sub-set! So it should have been
clear that when I was speaking about nothing, that I was not asking about the
a place which was only empty of some things, but not all.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Since we were talking about where everything came from in the beginning I
do not think you were following along. Where did everything come from
was a question about the beginning of all things, you don't get to say that
some came from nothing and others came from something...at the start of the
process it was one or the other as soon as one goes fir ...[text shortened]...
some.
I guess you cannot follow the conversation so I'll leave you to your thoughts.
Kelly[/b]

I don't need to give an example of something from nothing because I haven't said that I think the universe comes from nothing or something. I have said I don't know where it came from.

Just in case you missed it, here it is again:

I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE UNIVERSE CAME FROM

It is possible that I may know in the future.

I don't see how my current lack of knowledge of the beginning of the universe makes the existence of a god of any shape or form more likely to be honest.

Originally posted by Kepler
I don't need to give an example of something from nothing because I haven't said that I think the universe comes from nothing or something. I have said I don't know where it came from.

Just in case you missed it, here it is again:

[b]I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE UNIVERSE CAME FROM

It is possible that I may know in the future.

I don't see how my curr ...[text shortened]... of the universe makes the existence of a god of any shape or form more likely to be honest.[/b]

Are you now pleading ignorance and are throwing yourself before the mercy of the court? Prepare yourself for Hellfire.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Are you now pleading ignorance and are throwing yourself before the mercy of the court? Prepare yourself for Hellfire.

I don't know where the universe came from and neither do you. If we use some of the arguments already there in this thread you will say god was always there and one day decided to create a universe. OK, where was god up until that point? Was he perchance residing in nothing? And what did he make the universe out of? How do you know? If you say "It says in the Big Book of Fairy Tales aka the bible" you are wrong because it says bugger all about what god was up to before he hit on the notion of creating a universe as a plaything and says about the same amount about what he made the universe out of.

Hellfire my arse.

Originally posted by Kepler
I don't know where the universe came from and neither do you. If we use some of the arguments already there in this thread you will say god was always there and one day decided to create a universe. OK, where was god up until that point? Was he perchance residing in nothing? And what did he make the universe out of? How do you know? If you say "It says in the ...[text shortened]... g and says about the same amount about what he made the universe out of.

Hellfire my arse.

We don't seem to be on the same wavelength for understaning each other, so I will just refer you to a website that may allow you to get the answers you are seeking.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/before-creation

Originally posted by RJHinds
We don't seem to be on the same wavelength for understaning each other, so I will just refer you to a website that may allow you to get the answers you are seeking.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/before-creation

So god couldn't do anything until he created time? But how could he do something (create time) before he created time?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I responded beyond that if you care to look.
Kelly

Unless you define the "nothing" you are talking about we cannot make any progress.

Saying it cannot be defined is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Kepler
So god couldn't do anything until he created time? But how could he do something (create time) before he created time?

Keep reading. Don't stop there.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Unless you define the "nothing" you are talking about we cannot make any progress.

Saying it cannot be defined is ridiculous.

I defined it as best I could, it is the absence of all things in any shape, manner,
or form without exception.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I defined it as best I could, it is the absence of all things in any shape, manner,
or form without exception.
Kelly

The problem is that you do not stick to your definition. You give it a very specific point in space time and say that the universe came from it (in the strawman).
A true nothing is dimensionless and thus does not have position, but there are places in space time where something exists, therefore there is no 'nothing'. It cannot exist.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Keep reading. Don't stop there.

I did. There is nothing more about the before, nothing about what god was doing before he had the notion of creating something, nothing about how he got around the lack of time before he created time, and absolutely nothing about what the universe was made from. There was a great deal of twaddle about the after though, none of which is relevant to where the universe came from.