Originally posted by whodeyWhy the pretense? You made your bigoted attitudes extremely clear. You not only stated them, you defended them tooth and nail
I am sorry if you got the wrong impression our last go around. What I posted here is the way I feel about it. I would just like to add that I find it sad that people focus on homosexuality as "the issue" as to whether or not one comes to Christ. In fact, we all have issues that need dealt with when we come to Christ. If we did not, we would not have to come to Christ in the first place. As for myself, I am still a work in progress. 😉
It's not sad that people stand against bigoted attitudes. What's sad is the fact that you used the Bible as a weapon to further your bigotry. What's sad is that you hide behind being a "work in progress" to defend your bigotry.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIt appears that we will never see eye to eye on the issue at hand. However, can we at least agree that the gospel of Jesus Christ is one of liberation and good news? After all, that is the spirit in which this thread was started.
Why the pretense? You made your bigoted attitudes extremely clear. You not only stated them, you defended them tooth and nail
It's not sad that people stand against bigoted attitudes. What's sad is the fact that you used the Bible as a weapon to further your bigotry. What's sad is that you hide behind being a "work in progress" to defend your bigotry.
Originally posted by epiphinehasDont fool yourself ... there is such a thing as faith (a declaration of faith) without works. Otherwise James (and others) would not stress the importance of FAITH AND WORKS. Faith with works. Faith by works. So you cannot assume, which you always do, that those who claim to have faith will do good works. Obviously the phenomenon of FAITH WITHOUT WORKS existed in the those times, hence the reason for James addressing it. I know Epi and MLuther dont agree. Tough.
Again, faith without works is not faith at all, so don't go on saying that I'm preaching faith without works.
Thanks.
Faith and works exist separately and independently. And both are requirements for salvation.
As for this verse :
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
The word believeth is properly translated 'obey'. So if you OBEY ie follow the commandments of Christ, the chief of which is to love your neighbour as yourself (also called WORKS), then you will escape condemnation, which means you wont be condemned.
Originally posted by Rajk999The word believeth is properly translated 'obey'.
Dont fool yourself ... there is such a thing as faith (a declaration of faith) without works. Otherwise James (and others) would not stress the importance of FAITH AND WORKS. Faith with works. Faith by works. So you cannot assume, which you always do, that those who claim to have faith will do good works. Obviously the phenomenon of FAITH WITHOUT WORKS exist elf (also called WORKS), then you will escape condemnation, which means you wont be condemned.
Who told you that? The Greek word in question is pisteuo ("believeth" ) and it is absolutely not properly translated as "obey":
The Strong's Concordance definition, #4100: "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially ones spiritual well-being to Christ)."
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon: "1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in; to credit, have confidence; in a moral or religious reference; used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul; 2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith; to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity."
There are no instances in the NT where pisteuo is intended to mean "obey".
None.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is more appropriate to the average Christian. Living their lives with plenty of worldly possessions and refusing to give and help and love and care about anyone but themselves.... thats the road to certain damnation. And they do that because they are taught by people like you and Epiphinehas that works profit nothing and salvation is assured, all you have to do is believe in Christ and sit on your lazy butt until he returns.
If a Christian lives this way then I would venture to say they were not a Christian at all
Manny
Originally posted by Rajk9992 John 1 7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Paul is cursing you for preaching a gospel other than what he preached. Paul never taught that Christ is God in the flesh.
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Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But th ...[text shortened]... in, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
I always thought that believing that Christ came in the flesh was one of the tenets of Christianity.
Manny
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And then it reads and the word became flesh. 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
It says that the word was God then in verse 14 it reads the word became flesh and dwelt among us.
Manny
Originally posted by epiphinehasCould it be that if you trust someone completely then you will do what they have told you is right? In other words anyone who claims to have faith but does not follow Jesus' message does not really trust Jesus? ie they do not have faith in Jesus.
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon: "1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in; to credit, have confidence; in a moral or religious reference; used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul; 2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either ...[text shortened]... obtaining or in doing something: saving faith; to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity."
Definitely.
I think what Raj dislikes is the notion of assurance. He doesn't like the idea of someone preaching about the assurance of salvation, because he equates this teaching with a generation of Christians who lack works. I would point out that Christ taught both that an individual can be assured of salvation through faith (John 5:24) and that whoever believes in Him should follow his teachings. That means, if a person has faith in Jesus, and therefore follows His teachings, then that person must not only have works but must also rest in the assurance of salvation as well. The last thing a person of faith should be motivated by is fear of hellfire and the delusion that salvation must be earned, since Christ calls His followers to place their faith not in themselves but rather in Him. If a person is motivated by such things, faith is absent (just as we would conclude if works were absent). He or she may accomplish many wonderful things in God's name, but all for naught. Jesus already said that if you are to work the works of God, then you must believe:
"Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent"" (John 6:28-29).
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Jesus also said that works in themselves aren't sufficient, that one must do God's will, which is to believe in His Son:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:21-23).
These unfortunate folks did many works in God's name, but nevertheless did not do the Father's will, which is to believe in Jesus Christ:
"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6;40).
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Assurance and works must go hand in hand.
Originally posted by epiphinehasJohn, John, John.
Definitely.
I think what Raj dislikes is the notion of assurance. He doesn't like the idea of someone preaching about the assurance of salvation, because he equates this teaching with a generation of Christians who lack works. I would point out that Christ taught both that an individual can be assured of salvation through faith (John 5:24) [i]and[/i ...[text shortened]... last day" (John 6;40).
__________
Assurance and works must go hand in hand.
Funny that.
Originally posted by twhiteheadThis is what seems difficult for many to take to its logical conclusion: True "faith" is not faith at all unless one follows the commandments of Jesus. They claim "faith" without the trust to follow commandments of Jesus.
Could it be that if you trust someone completely then you will do what they have told you is right? In other words anyone who claims to have faith but does not follow Jesus' message does not really trust Jesus? ie they do not have faith in Jesus.
Note in Epi's response, he says he agrees and then demonstrates that he does not agree. With John 6:28-29, true "belief" would also require following the commandments of Jesus. With Matthew 7:21-23, doing "the will of [His] Father" would also require following the commandments of Jesus.
The net effect is talking out both sides of one's mouth. They so desire "assurance" that they can neither see nor hear what Jesus is saying.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneNothing in my post substantiates your claim.
This is what seems difficult for many to take to its logical conclusion: True "faith" is not faith at all unless one follows the commandments of Jesus. They claim "faith" without the trust to follow commandments of Jesus.
Note in Epi's response, he says he agrees and then demonstrates that he does not agree. With John 6:28-29, true "belief" would also ...[text shortened]...
They so desire "assurance" that they can neither see nor hear what Jesus is saying.