18 Nov 20
As a lifelong atheist, my answer is: "All roads lead to the grave." There is nothing beyond that destination. Am I willing to roll the dice that I am right? Yes, I am.
Does this give me license to act however I want? No. There are ways humans can act (mercy, love, kindness) that I aspire to. And ways humans can act (hatred, greed, violence) that I want to avoid.
And, paradoxically, all of this comes from being raised in the Southern Baptist church. As a child, up thru college age, I attended (forced) church between 3 to 5 times a week, plus 2 or more weeks a year of 7 day revival meetings.
And during this time I came to 2 conclusions. There was too much in the Bible that was, to me, obviously false (coming back from the dead, virgin birth, walking on water) for me to take the preacher's hellfire and brimstone seriously. It just seemed to be stories meant to frighten children so they would tell their children the same stories and the faith would live on.
But there was such beauty in the writings of the Bible that I couldn't reject it whole cloth. Such great stories of mercy (The Good Samaritan, The Woman Taken in Adultery) made me realize the need to give mercy to others and hope for that mercy from others.
Paul writes in Corinthians: " And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love. I disagree. It's mercy.
18 Nov 20
1 edit
@rajk999 saidYes, they are effectively the same thing. God IS love.
A bit more schooling and you would have figured out all by yourself that 'all-loving" and 'God is love' are not the same.
You just don’t like the scripture because like hundreds of others which have been given you by dozens of posters, this one conflicts with your one-dimensional dogmatic perspective.
18 Nov 20
@divegeester saidSo the end (for those not going to Heaven), is as it was before being alive? Or something else?
The concept of an all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful creator, who predestines and then permits his creation to be infiltrated and fall into sinfulness and death, and then demands that his creation repents and worship him because his loves them or he will torture them in eternal fire....
Is utterly preposterous, logically flawed and morally reprehensible.
The is no “hell”.
What about Heaven then?
18 Nov 20
@rajk999 saidAww, listen, I really am sorry you were offended at that.
Pretty soon yo its me will come whining with some nonsense like ..
??? You're very hard to understand Rajk. Are you young? I don't mean this as an insult. I think we assume you're our age but I think you're much younger and we should make allowances perhaps.
Being young is a good thing, it means there's a endless space before you for growth and learning.
When I was younger I held to a few Bible verses and repeated them, I thought in terms of black and white and literal taking of the Bible.
Seriously didn't mean to insult you, please accept my apologies.
18 Nov 20
@rajk999 saidWhen you imagine Heaven, or Hell: what do you imagine it looks or feels like?
Jesus referred to hell several times where evil people are tormented. However there is no indication that this torment is forever and ever. Jesus never spoke of a place called heaven where people go to. Quite the opposite, Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven. I personally will stay with what Jesus said, without adding or embellishing it.
I cannot remember se ...[text shortened]... s also taken on a tour apparently somewhere in the heavens and he wrote a lot about that experience.
What images do you put in your mind to wonder what it is?
18 Nov 20
@montymoose saidBut what is that grave?
As a lifelong atheist, my answer is: "All roads lead to the grave." There is nothing beyond that destination.
The body disintegrates, what happens to the mind and spirit?
18 Nov 20
@they said😍 lovely idea.
Hoping that if there is a heaven some of us will be able slide in from some technicality that was not translated correctly from the Hebrew, Greek etc. Maybe there are some sweet not-so-strict entry rules we don't know about yet or someone forgot to write down.
Would you want to be in Heaven- what do you imagine it is?
18 Nov 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI'd love to know what you think though- are there seven for you?
I think the seven heavens is from Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Heavens
Christianity
La materia della Divina commedia di Dante Alighieri, Plate VI: "The Ordering of Paradise" by Michelangelo Caetani (1804–1882)
An explicit reference to the Third Heaven appears in the Christian New Testament canon. A Pauline epistle, penned in Macedonia around 55CE, describes this mystical experience:
I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows—was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.
— (2 Corinthians 12.2–4 NRSV)
I was wondering if people though, those who think that 'good works' are relevant to Heaven, that maybe they think those who do better works get into a better Heaven.
18 Nov 20
@yo-its-me saidI dont accept fake apologies. If and when you do change your ways I will know and I will see it. If that happens then apology accepted, otherwise right now your apology stinks.
Aww, listen, I really am sorry you were offended at that.
Being young is a good thing, it means there's a endless space before you for growth and learning.
When I was younger I held to a few Bible verses and repeated them, I thought in terms of black and white and literal taking of the Bible.
Seriously didn't mean to insult you, please accept my apologies.
@divegeester saidI insult people who insult me. Its called 'first blood'. You start it, then dont complain after.
Shut up Rajk999.
You insult people on this board every day you post. You just told me I needed “more schooling”.
So don’t be a hypocrite, you’re certainly better than that.
18 Nov 20
3 edits
@yo-its-me saidI don’t know what heaven is; I only know what hell isn’t, and for the summary reason I gave above.
So the end (for those not going to Heaven), is as it was before being alive? Or something else?
What about Heaven then?
I’ll try to explain.
I have a personal acceptance of an idea about the atonement which has been in my mind for many years. I’ve explained it in here before but it is not well accepted, especially by the adherents to the torturing god in hell ideology...
There is a teaching I’ve read entitled “ultimate reconciliation” which talks about the absolute sovereignty of God and how the atonement has provided salvation, from whatever hell was, for everyone who has ever lived and whoever will live. Everyone.
There are only three options for life after death:
1) Everyone goes to hell to be tortured in fire for eternity, except certain Christians, or those Christians who believe X Y and Z etc
2) As number 1 except that instead of hell there is the resurrection followed by annihilation, the second death
3) Everyone lives, is saved.
[And of course a 4th, everyone just dies and that’s the end of it.]
- I don’t believe in 1) as I’ve stated previously
- 2 doesn’t make much sense either. To be raised up from the grace, to bow the knee to and acknowledge Jesus as Lord (“every knee shall bow and every tongue confess” etc) and then for Jesus to say: told you I was real, luv’d ya, died for ya, don’t wanna be with ya, and then kills them all.
- so 3 makes sense to me whereby believers, the born again, they get to experience the heavenly salvation in the here and now. They give hope to the lost to live their life to the fullest doing GOOD WORKS (nod to Rajk999) through obedience to the calling they have had. They spread the GOOD NEWS, which is that the kingdom of heaven, which we will all experience eventually, can be inherited now, in this life on earth.
There you go, that’s what I currently believe about Christianity.
@rajk999 saidI’m not complaining in the slightest.
I insult people who insult me. Its called 'first blood'. You start it, then dont complain after.
And I didn’t start it!
You carry on showing me how you “follow the teachings of Jesus,” it’s fascinating to see your real and true fear of damnation translated via your real and true love of Jesus into your words here.
Sorry. Not buying it.