Hiding from God

Originally posted by epiphinehas
If God is "totally, absolutely and completely reliable", then why don't you trust in him?

I do.

You think that trusting in God means works is not essential?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Come on Pinky .. you should know better than to try that. There are exceptions to every rule, and exception cannot void the rule. Was the thief on the cross baptised? Probably not. Does that mean baptism is not important ? Remember Christ can make any exception to His rule. you and I cant.

Therefore Christ can if he so wishes grant salvation by his grace simply on the basis of faith. Why is he breaking his own rule then? Did he just fancy a change? Or could it be that he saw in the heart of this thief faith and repentance? Why couldn't Christ make lots of exceptions ? Would you stand in his way and say it was unfair because some "unrighteous" men had made it into heaven. You need to read the parable of the talents more carefully.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Skim through the thread "Jaywill and Rajk999's discussion" and you will understand. In a nutshell there are some who believe that once 'born again' you are immediately saved and regardless of your works your salvation is guaranteed. I disagree ... baptism, belief and the whole 'born again' process is the start of the road to salvation (not the end), and you ...[text shortened]... ou to gain salvation. Please dont argue that all 'born again' Christians do good works.

baptism, belief and the whole 'born again' process is the start of the road to salvation (not the end), and your works subsequent to that must be good works for you to gain salvation.---rajk---------------

And that is your error, right there in front of you.

Works are evidence of one's salvation but not a way of gaining it. Works are the inevitable outcome of salvation. If you are doing works in the hope that salvation will be gained then you don't understand grace. God loves us and saves us so that we might DO good works not BECAUSE we do good works.

In any case no-one can serve a Father who they still believe holds them under condemnation. No-one can function without assurance. In addition works done in order to gain salvation are basically SELFISH and self serving. The idea of grace is to get away from the idea of doing good works out of fear as a way of gaining approval. The good works are meant to be done in the spirit of love and an outpouring of the love God puts in us. True good works are done out of gratitude to God for his salvation granted to us via grace. A good work done to attain favour or salvation is as rags to God because the focus is still on "self". Selfless good works done out of love for people only occur when the person is assured and the issue of "gaining salvation" is out of the way.

Ask God to reveal this truth to you in your heart and you will know that what I am saying is right.

Originally posted by vistesd
A couple of points (okay, more than a couple):

(1) People seem to keep accusing ToO of hypocrisy. Now, I’ve argued with him a time or two, and accused him of a thing or two (in the spirit of debate, of course), but hypocrisy hasn’t been one of them. I don’t see where his hypocrisy lies—especially since I don’t recall his c ...[text shortened]... nowhere to hide. Any kind of existential hiding is always going to be some kind of self-deceit.

"Anyway, that is my response to the valid question of the opening post: god or no god, where the hell does anyone think they can hide?

God or no god, Christ or no Christ, grace/faith or works—whatever or whatever—there ain’t nowhere to hide. Any kind of existential hiding is always going to be some kind of self-deceit.

A book that can give some insight into this issue is "On Desire" by William B. Irvine. I read it a while back. Although I recall not agreeing with some of his conclusions, he brought forth some interesting concepts. I highly recommend it.

Look at pages 118-119. It indirectly speaks to what I see as the root of this issue.
http://books.google.com/[WORD TOO LONG]

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on what he has written on those two pages.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If you are saying that a man who lives a life of truth and love 99% of the time is in the same catagory as a man who sins his brains out recklessly every day then , yes , that's perfectionism. For you the occasional stumble in following Jesus or the occasional sin is just not good enough - that's perfectionism. For you it's not enough to try to be perf ...[text shortened]... watch him drive for some time or just for that brief moment when he might make a mistake?

But you don't have to be "perfect". You can CHOOSE righteousness. What's more, if you truly have your heart right, there is no choice. Hopefully you would never rape someone. Hopefully it isn't even an option for you. All the sins work similarly.

But once again you dismiss the words of Jesus based on what YOU WANT to be true. So you bring up your regular list of rationalizations.

Jesus says what He says. He says it explicitly and clearly.

Once again, ask yourself this: "When someone sins, is he keeping the commandments of Jesus? Is he keeping His words?"

I'm sure you'll continue to duck this question since you have no answer.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Exactly, ToO's intent is ever to accuse Christians of being hypocrites, i.e., sayers and not doers of the word, excusing their sins, and hiding from the Truth, etc. There is a barely disguised contempt for those who profess faith in Christ behind every ToO post. Thus, in this thread his linking of belief in salvation by grace with subsequent hypocritic ...[text shortened]... gether for good to those who love God, who are the called according to his purpose (Rom. 8:28).

"What a lie! It is quite revealing that ToO and Rajk, two of the biggest proponents of salvation by righteous living, have each been caught calling others insulting names in these forums."

It's been a really long time since I was able to convince myself of the relevance of this type of argument. I'd think most have outgrown this by their late teens. Didn't you used to reason better than this?

Originally posted by knightmeister
baptism, belief and the whole 'born again' process is the start of the road to salvation (not the end), and your works subsequent to that must be good works for you to gain salvation.---rajk---------------

And that is your error, right there in front of you.

Works are evidence of one's salvation but not a way of gaining it. Works are the inevit ...[text shortened]... reveal this truth to you in your heart and you will know that what I am saying is right.

Do me a little favour please.
DONT PREACH TO ME ... Thanks.
Let just trash out the facts.

Are you saying that all 'born again' Christians do good works?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Do me a little favour please.
DONT PREACH TO ME ... Thanks.
Let just trash out the facts.

Are you saying that all 'born again' Christians do good works?

I don't doubt that many who call themselves Christian and say they are born again not only do not do good works but actually do evil and have no idea about love. I have met some myself.

So your point is?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
But you don't have to be "perfect". You can CHOOSE righteousness. What's more, if you truly have your heart right, there is no choice. Hopefully you would never rape someone. Hopefully it isn't even an option for you. All the sins work similarly.

But once again you dismiss the words of Jesus based on what YOU WANT to be true. So you bring up your regu ...[text shortened]... is words?"

I'm sure you'll continue to duck this question since you have no answer.

Once again, ask yourself this: "When someone sins, is he keeping the commandments of Jesus? Is he keeping His words?"

I'm sure you'll continue to duck this question since you have no answer.---------------ToO-------------------------

Oh no, the ducking rights are all yours I'm afraid.

When someone sins then at that point in time they are not keeping his commandments at that time (I think I already said this)

However , we do not judge other people on the basis of only what they do at one specific moment in time. We look at the over view and the long term. Jesus seemed to do exactly this with Simon Peter and also taught us to ask God for forgiveness on a daily basis. He would only logically do this if there was an expectation that at times we would fail and fall short. Why do you think he did this?

Your turn to duck?

Originally posted by knightmeister
However , we do not judge other people on the basis of only what they do at one specific moment in time. We look at the over view and the long term. Jesus seemed to do exactly this with Simon Peter and also taught us to ask God for forgiveness on a daily basis. He would only logically do this if there was an expectation that at times we would fail and fall short. Why do you think he did this?

I personally have never understood it. To me it seems like an admission from God that he set us up to fail. It also looks like he is a bit needy. If he knows we will fail, and knows that he has lots of forgiveness to dish out on a regular basis, then why does he need people to be begging for it on a daily basis?
But then I have never understood the whole 'you've got to believe in me to be saved' story. I just cant see why God would make that condition. It just doesn't make sense to me. It certainly doesn't seem just, as he appears to have provided evidence of his existence to some of you and left me out of the loop.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Once again, ask yourself this: "When someone sins, is he keeping the commandments of Jesus? Is he keeping His words?"

I'm sure you'll continue to duck this question since you have no answer.---------------ToO-------------------------

Oh no, the ducking rights are all yours I'm afraid.

When someone sins then at that point in time they are not ...[text shortened]... at times we would fail and fall short. Why do you think he did this?

Your turn to duck?

Jesus didn't say "If a man love me, he will keep my word most of the time...". If that's what He meant, he had a poor way of expressing it.

Yes, there's an expectation that many will continue to fall short. So what? They've yet to truly love Jesus.

You make some of the most illogical leaps.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
But you don't have to be "perfect". You can CHOOSE righteousness. What's more, if you truly have your heart right, there is no choice. Hopefully you would never rape someone. Hopefully it isn't even an option for you. All the sins work similarly.

But once again you dismiss the words of Jesus based on what YOU WANT to be true. So you bring up your regu ...[text shortened]... is words?"

I'm sure you'll continue to duck this question since you have no answer.

But you don't have to be "perfect". You can CHOOSE righteousness. What's more, if you truly have your heart right, there is no choice. Hopefully you would never rape someone. Hopefully it isn't even an option for you. All the sins work similarly.
---------------ToOne----------

What do you mean by "you don't have to be perfect"? This is contrary to everything you imply. You say that after repentance no confession is neccessary, yes? Because sin is overcome , yes?

Do you not see that this directly implies perfection. For example , you are right about me raping someone , it's not on my radar. Neither is adultery. However , I cannot say that I have never had brief thoughts of desire when seeing other women.

Jesus taught that if I even so much as look at another woman I am committing adultery in my mind. I think he was right. This is a very hard teaching for any red blooded male , so I find perfection in this area a struggle of regular confession. This applies to many other sins of thought.

However, logically your position implies that because I have not overcome sin 100% , my heart is not right and I have no salvation. My view is that my heart IS right (otherwise I would not be confessing) but that my flesh is letting me down.

I don't think you extend your concept of sin wide enough to realise what it is you are actually saying. You don't fully realise the implications of your position . If you did you would not hold it. To be perfectly holy means to have no sin in you and have no need for confession or forgiveness.

On one hand you say "you don't have to be perfect" and on the other you say that sin needs to be completely conquered. You say anyone who sins at all is not saved and is not righteous , whereas I would say that they are not fully perfected yet but their heart is well on the way.

Everything you have said for months implies only sinless perfection and unwavering following of Jesus's teachings in thought and deed are acceptable for salvation. Any exceptions I have suggested have been dismissed by you , but here you are saying "you don't have to be perfect"????????

Maybe if you explained what "don't have to be perfect " actually means to you it would be better. Myabe now you understand better why I have been asking you about your own life and your own struggle. It would clarify so many issues.

Could you give an example of an imperfection in your own moral thoughts and deeds that you think God would not label as sin?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I don't doubt that many who call themselves Christian and say they are born again not only do not do good works but actually do evil and have no idea about love. I have met some myself.

So your point is?

Many 'born again' Christians actually
- do evil
- dont do good works
- have no idea about love.
... and yet they are saved and their salvation is assured.

Is this your position ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Many 'born again' Christians actually
- do evil
- dont do good works
- have no idea about love.
... and yet they are saved and their salvation is assured.

Is this your position ?

You can't read. Re-read my post and your mistake will be obvious.

( a little clue would be the words call and say)

Originally posted by knightmeister
But you don't have to be "perfect". You can CHOOSE righteousness. What's more, if you truly have your heart right, there is no choice. Hopefully you would never rape someone. Hopefully it isn't even an option for you. All the sins work similarly.
---------------ToOne----------

What do you mean by "you don't have to be perfect"? This is contrary to our own moral thoughts and deeds that you think God would not label as sin?

"My view is that my heart IS right (otherwise I would not be confessing) but that my flesh is letting me down."

What a rationalization. Hey, it isn't me. My heart is right. It's just that my flesh is letting me down. What a pathetic attempt at absolving yourself from responsibility for your actions.

Dennis Rader told the police, "I'm a good guy, really I am". I imagine that what he really meant was "I'm a good guy, really I am. It's just that my flesh is letting me down". I'll bet he dutifully "confessed" after each heinous act. That's what's so dangerous about this line of thinking.

It's not about "perfection". You don't have to know the answers to all questions. It's okay if you burn the toast. You only have to get your heart in a place where righteousness is the only option when faced with a choice.