06 Aug 10
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Originally posted by galveston75Youre kind slow so I will explain. Fabian made cult remarks, Micahchu asked why, so I volunteered some info and my opinions. Then YOU aske me to go into detail so I suggested we revert to the regular scheduled programme. There is no issue. Got it ?
Your the one with the cult issues, not me.
06 Aug 10
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Originally posted by Rajk999Yes sir.... Lol.
Youre kind slow so I will explain. Fabian made cult remarks, Micahchu asked why, so I volunteered some info and my opinions. Then YOU aske me to go into detail so I suggested we revert to the regular scheduled programme. There is no issue. Got it ?
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by galveston75Forget about the past? After you ignored my question about the "eternal now", and given all your arguements are from the bible, an old book, wouldn't you say you are contradicting yourself? I thought all your arguements are from the past😕
The Witnesses have never claimed to be prophets so that would be an incorrect statement. But like any human on this planent misakes are made when there is insufficient knowledge or that God has not allowed the light of knowledge to shine brightly on a specific subject yet. So what you are referring to happened many decades ago and the misunderstandings o ...[text shortened]... and for the future and forget the past as it is the past. One who keeps looking back, stumbles.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by karoly aczelYep. Good Point.
Forget about the past? After you ignored my question about the "eternal now", and given all your arguements are from the bible, an old book, wouldn't you say you are contradicting yourself? I thought all your arguements are from the past😕
He was asking us to forget about THEIR miserable untruthful past.
Its like a used car salesman asking you to forget about the lemons they sold you in the past and buy another car today ... No Siree !! 😀
06 Aug 10
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Originally posted by micahchuYou have "nice conversations" when you go door to door? Every JW that has come to my door, most times I've invited tehm in , has not really had a conversation per se. Not a "two way" conversation anyway. They just ell me how it is, and if I disagree, then I am wrong.
Thanks for the welcome, yes I have been reading, and I can see that there are some individuals that seem outright hostile to us, but that is nothing I am not used to, I have some people slam the door in my face when I visit. On the other hand, I see far more people behave quite nice, and are willing to have quite the nice conversations, and I have both lea ...[text shortened]... , or are you using the term in the Connotative sense that cults are negative?
Thanks again, M
Yes, your use of the word "conversation" very loosey, and potentially quite misleading. Maybe "indoctrination" would be a more accurate word.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by Rajk9991. Jesus is the living leader of the Christian congregation, and if you can point to anyone else more deserving : 1 Pet 2:21 "Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely"
This might help. Here are some characteristics of cults:
http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/uploads/CultCharacteristics.htm
I would say that the JW exhibit the following : 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 14
Just my opinion.
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1. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to displa ...[text shortened]... 14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
If all religions practiced this with "cult like" zeal, then I think you can agree, the world would be a whole lot better place.
2. Jesus instructions: Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples "
3. I'm not sure where this comes from, we are a non profit organization, but it does indeed cost money to print our literature, the goal of which is worldwide bible education, so our preoccupation is not with the money, but the preaching work. (sorry, just noticed this was not one you felt applied to us, but since I had already responded, figured I would leave it in)
4. If this is talking about questioning God's rules, then so be it, but if this is talking about doctrinal issues, then no, as 1 John 4:1 says, we are encouraged "Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world."
6. If by Leadership, this means Jesus and the Bible, then as with 4, again, so be it, we are encouraged at 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 "But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ."
This type of thinking as Christ did will prevent us from doing things that are contrary to bible principles. At times, there are bible principles that do affect our employment, who we marry, and so forth, but these are mostly decisions we make individually from our bible trained conscience. If however, I decided my conscience allowed me to pick as my "job" to sell drugs, (Illegal, not as a pharmacist) this would be a pretty clear indication that I did not have the mind of Christ on the matter, and just like most countries of the world have laws against that, I would be no longer be one of Jehovah's Witnesses, if I refused to repent and change.
7. No, we have no special status, Acts 10:34-43 “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him. 36 He sent out the word to the sons of Israel to declare to them the good news of peace through Jesus Christ: this One is Lord of all [others]. 37 YOU know the subject that was talked about throughout the whole of Ju‧de′a, starting from Gal′i‧lee after the baptism that John preached, 38 namely, Jesus who was from Naz′a‧reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they also did away with him by hanging him on a stake. 40 God raised this One up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the One decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name.”
8. I would contest that our differences from many other people make us fit in society on a global scale better. For instance, in whatever country we live, bible principles tell us to follow the laws of the government as long as they do not conflict with Bible laws. We also believe it is more than just the police etc that are watching, but God. This also ends up keeping us from participating in wars.
11. Guilt is a interesting topic, as it is an internal feeling that we get. We have articles on how to have a balanced view of guilt, that if you are interested, I can send you more information, but it really comes down to this. Since I believe we Jehovah's Witnesses are more concerned that most people with following the bible's principles to the best of our imperfect abilities, when we fail, say to treat our fellow man with respect, cutting someone off in traffic, or other things, we feel bad about this. If we allow these feelings of guilt to weigh us down, then eventually we would stop trying. So instead, what we allow to control our thinking is our love of Jehovah, and our desire to do things that please him. I personally have made plenty of mistakes in the past, and never felt controlled by guilt, but instead had a desire to set things straight.
12. Since our desire is the same as Jehovah's as found at 2 Peter 3:9 "9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.", why would we want to cut ties with our family? We are just as interested (if not more so because "blood is thicker than water" ) in having our family gain the same hope that we have as we are interested in finding individuals to talk to at their doors. However, no matter what belief we humans have, economic, social, religion etc, gravitate in our association to people that feel the same.
13. Who determines what an inordinate amount of time is? Look at studies about how much time we spend watching TV, recreation etc. 1 Tim 4:8 "For bodily training is beneficial for a little; but godly devotion is beneficial for all things, as it holds promise of the life now and that which is to come." We need to spend a certain amount of time Sleeping, eating, working (I think I spend an inordinate amount of time working) Our average number of hours we spend out in the door to door ministry is not much more than 10 hours a month. Granted, we also spend about 3 and a half hours per week in bible study at our meetings, and a certain amount of time at home in personal bible study (I personally spend an average of about 4 hours a week, but this is completely up to each individual, and not even reported or discussed for that matter)
14. See my comments at the end of 12, this seems pretty natural to me.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by galveston75If JW culters not want to be liked, then you succeed.
We are actually glad to not be liked....Matt 24:9. That suites us fine...🙂
But I don't quite think you're right there. If I meet a JW face to face and ask him (or her) "Do you want to be hated or to be liked?" Then I think I know what answer I will get.
On the other hand, I think it's very hard to like you, and people like you.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasIts not that I dont like G75, its just that I dont like his "debating" style. Its frustrating and is indicative of the way JWs "debate" in general-at least the ones I've come across.
If JW culters not want to be liked, then you succeed.
But I don't quite think you're right there. If I meet a JW face to face and ask him (or her) "Do you want to be hated or to be liked?" Then I think I know what answer I will get.
On the other hand, I think it's very hard to like you, and people like you.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by galveston75Pas de problème!
Well I honestly want to appologize to you and any others that have I have shown a wrong attitude as that is not what I mean to do and it is certianly not what we are taught from our publications and schools. I am truley sorry but I am passionate about the Bible and even more so about the truths of the Bible.
I know you feel otherwise but as much as yo ...[text shortened]... know they have.
But I'll research for you and see what I can come up with.....Thanks.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by karoly aczelWhenever someone uses arrogance, insults, personal attacks, and other anti-social behaviour, then I cannot like the person.
Its not that I dont like G75, its just that I dont like his "debating" style. Its frustrating and is indicative of the way JWs "debate" in general-at least the ones I've come across.
But I can anyway value his knowledge, if he is willing to share it. Often fundamentalists are not so willing to do that. They see a debate as a mean of winning of losing.
When I learn something new in a debate, I am the winner. If I can teach him something new that he values, he is also the winner.
So a good debate there are only winners.
In a debate which focuses on insults, arrogance, quarrels, and fights, there are no winners at all. Both are losers in this debate.
When galve says, and backs it up with a verse from his bible, that he has no intentions to be liked, then I have learned something from galve, even if I didn't learn if it is a way of thinking for every JWer, or just him. I still don't know.
He doesn't want to be liked. A can accept this.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasWell you didn't say "hate", so I can live with that.
Whenever someone uses arrogance, insults, personal attacks, and other anti-social behaviour, then I cannot like the person.
But I can anyway value his knowledge, if he is willing to share it. Often fundamentalists are not so willing to do that. They see a debate as a mean of winning of losing.
When I learn something new in a debate, I am the winner. ...[text shortened]... ery JWer, or just him. I still don't know.
He doesn't want to be liked. A can accept this.
His "knowledge" is obviously just an extension of JW propoganda and therefore its hard to know really what his knowledge really is and what he is just repeating without thinking about it.
HoH's thread on "Levictus and Homo's" sums this attitude up real well. It shows that either the JWs haven't thought things through properly and just hide behind an outdated history book, or that they truly believe in some of these outdated, inhumane practises😕
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by karoly aczelOur friend has a habit of copy and pasting from his, sometimes unknown, sources. And without a further thought of it, he takes it for the big Truth, not concerning himself of the little detail than not everyone agrees with him. This is one of the criteria of a 'cult' according to a link to the definition of a cult.
Well you didn't say "hate", so I can live with that.
His "knowledge" is obviously just an extension of JW propoganda and therefore its hard to know really what his knowledge really is and what he is just repeating without thinking about it.
HoH's thread on "Levictus and Homo's" sums this attitude up real well. It shows that either the JWs haven't t ...[text shortened]... story book, or that they truly believe in some of these outdated, inhumane practises😕
I am always suspicious of people who says they, and they only, have the Truth on their hands. They have stop serarching for the trueth, why would they? They have it already, given to them by a vision, from an authority who claims he has spoken to god himself, or more often, have read it somewhere.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasYes indeed.
Our friend has a habit of copy and pasting from his, sometimes unknown, sources. And without a further thought of it, he takes it for the big Truth, not concerning himself of the little detail than not everyone agrees with him. This is one of the criteria of a 'cult' according to a link to the definition of a cult.
I am always suspicious of people who ...[text shortened]... m an authority who claims he has spoken to god himself, or more often, have read it somewhere.
I'm amazed about how completely sure some of these theists are with their "knowledge" about the universe.
Even if "god" knows everything, people dont. The best they can do is work out their own little piece of truth, which , if properly formulated, will make one part of the jigsaw puzzle we call life . If enough people work out their own little piece, then we can make furthur discoveries about life, the human condition, the true history of religon and man, etc.
We will never move forward with our collective understanding if we just keep repeating other people's words. We need to add something to our collective understanding that comes from ourselves-that comes from alligning ourselves with the truth and interpretting that truth correctly in the right situation...blah,blah🙂
The bible is so alluring, I believe, because there is truth in it. (though it is mixed with lies)
Similarly , thats why I think so many people have fallen for the "new-age" movement. It sounds so good and positive. But if you study it closer, you will find there is much discrepancy between true spirituality and any movement or religon that claims to know the whole truth (and that all other lines of thought are wrong).
Misinformation and disinformation have kept people confused for at least 2000 years😛