06 Aug 10
Originally posted by karoly aczelOften fundamentalist people are very anti-scientific. They use the frase "This is scientifically proven" when it suits them, and "science is the work of satan" when it's about evolution and BigBang.
Yes indeed.
I'm amazed about how completely sure some of these theists are with their "knowledge" about the universe.
Even if "god" knows everything, people dont. The best they can do is work out their own little piece of truth, which , if properly formulated, will make one part of the jigsaw puzzle we call life . If enough people work out their own ...[text shortened]... .
Misinformation and disinformation have kept people confused for at least 2000 years😛
Allow me to be a bit religious for a while:
God created it all, didn't he? Okay, then he thought of every little bit, how tiny it may be to start the wheels of the Universe to start. Every little constant, ever little force, ever little particle and so on. Because if he would create the Universe with flaws, then he would be forsed to step in now and then just to put things right again. So the Universe is perfect from its very beginning.
So by study the Universe, into its minute detail, we can actually come to understand how God the Creator thought when it all started. By study the Universe they actually study God Himself! The further we go to the smallest smallest, the further we go inte the largest largest, the more we go to every extreem, the bigger it is to meet God there.
The bottom line: The greatest theologicans are the Scientists. The men dressed in black in the high pointy buildings are not nowhere near the true God. Skip the bible, read the book of hysics. Because it's there you will meet God, the Great Creator.
Phiuu, that's was hard.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasYou sum up the theists viewpoint quite well, though they probaly have their differences, but generally its like how you say.
Often fundamentalist people are very anti-scientific. They use the frase "This is scientifically proven" when it suits them, and "science is the work of satan" when it's about evolution and BigBang.
Allow me to be a bit religious for a while:
God created it all, didn't he? Okay, then he thought of every little bit, how tiny it may be to start the wh ...[text shortened]... ics. Because it's there you will meet God, the Great Creator.
Phiuu, that's was hard.
I do believe God created the universe. Not a christian God.
Also I have no problem with the basic theory of evolution. I do not dismiss science-that would be crazy.
However, I do think there were some other factors in human evolution that we have not discovered yet. There are still many mysteries of human histories and the human brain ,(just to name two),that are yet to be uncovered.
Then again I cant prove God. And for all practical purposes, we dont really need a ''god'' to understand the universe. "God" is an important word, but it has often been misused and even more often misunderstood.
06 Aug 10
1 edit
Originally posted by micahchuThanks for that but I dont know why you spent all that time and effort trying to explain why you think the JWs are not a cult. Sorry if I misled you but Im not interested in whether they are or not. I dont think anyone else is either. I think the main trust of this thread are the following points:
1. Jesus is the living leader of the Christian congregation, and if you can point to anyone else more deserving : 1 Pet 2:21 "Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely"
If all religions practiced this with "cult like" zeal, then I think you can agree, the world would be a whole lot better place.
2. Jesus instructi
14. See my comments at the end of 12, this seems pretty natural to me.
1. Whether or not the JWs have the only true religion (as is the claim made by the article posted by Galveston) and if in fact membership of the JW organisation is a prerequisite for entry into the earthly paradise to come.
2. How do the JWs justify claiming that the 144,000 referred to in Revelation are not descendents of Jacob (Israel), but are in fact mostly composed of Jehovah Witnesses. Galveston himself confessed that he knew one such JW woman who was one of the 144,000. Thats actually a hilarious claim when you consider that the same Galveston says that only God knows who make up the 144,000 ... 😀 ...
Lets hope you have some responses that make sense to normal thinking people.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by Rajk999Rajk,
Thanks for that but I dont know why you spent all that time and effort trying to explain why you think the JWs are not a cult. Sorry if I misled you but Im not interested in whether they are or not. I dont think anyone else is either. I think the main trust of this thread are the following points:
1. Whether or not the JWs have the only true religion (as ...[text shortened]... ,000 ... 😀 ...
Lets hope you have some responses that make sense to normal thinking people.
I spent that time because I asked why Fabian felt the need to refer to us a a cult. You chimed in with your list, saying that we exhibit certain signs. I was responding to that comment. If you are not interested in whether we are or not, then why did you take the time to respond to a comment that was not directed to you with a list, and editorialize specific points?
As to your other two points, I have already answered them. I will respond to your response to my answer when I have a few more minutes, as the point you make about our difference in belief that we should follow the whole bible is a good point, and will require more lengthy replies.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by micahchuIts either you follow Christ or you follow the whole bible. You cannot possibly follow the commandments of whole Bible. Its an impossible task. They only way is to follow Christ and His commandments.
Rajk,
I spent that time because I asked why Fabian felt the need to refer to us a a cult. You chimed in with your list, saying that we exhibit certain signs. I was responding to that comment. If you are not interested in whether we are or not, then why did you take the time to respond to a comment that was not directed to you with a list, and editoria ...[text shortened]... ef that we should follow the whole bible is a good point, and will require more lengthy replies.
What the JWs do is to claim to follow Christ but then they cherry-pick certain things in the OT which they think are nice to include into their doctrine.
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm curious as to when Jesus made the comment or command to his followers that we are not to use, refer to, use in teaching or preaching in spiritual matters, counseling or reprimanding issues, etc, etc, from the Old Testiment?
Its either you follow Christ or you follow the whole bible. You cannot possibly follow the commandments of whole Bible. Its an impossible task. They only way is to follow Christ and His commandments.
What the JWs do is to claim to follow Christ but then they cherry-pick certain things in the OT which they think are nice to include into their doctrine.
I've read the New Testiment many, many times from end to end and I haven't seen those verses yet. Could you please explain this expecially in light of 2Tim 3:16??
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by galveston75You can use the OT to enlarge on what Christ taught. You cannot use the OT to contradict what Christ taught, or to add laws and doctrines willy-nilly. The Pharisees were guilty of applying the laws of the OT in an unmerciful manner and they were criticised by Christ. The JWs do pretty much the same thing.
I'm curious as to when Jesus made the comment or command to his followers that we are not to use, refer to, use in teaching or preaching in spiritual matters, counseling or reprimanding issues, etc, etc, from the Old Testiment?
I've read the New Testiment many, many times from end to end and I haven't seen those verses yet. Could you please explain this expecially in light of 2Tim 3:16??
What exactly is lacking in what Christ taught and why exactly do you need to refer to another authority. Are not the teachings of Christ sufficient?
The NT is full of Christ saying:
"Follow ME"
"I am the way the truth and the life"
" Follow my commandments"
Etc etc .. he says it ad nauseum .. do you need references ?
06 Aug 10
Originally posted by Rajk999That didn't answer my question and exactly how are we unmerciful?. Is removing one from the congregation as the NEW TESTAMENT states at 1Cor 5:13 not correct then? Or is your idea of a wicked man that is "practicing" homosexuality not doing wrong?
You can use the OT to enlarge on what Christ taught. You cannot use the OT to contradict what Christ taught, or to add laws and doctrines willy-nilly. The Pharisees were guilty of applying the laws of the OT in an unmerciful manner and they were criticised by Christ. The JWs do pretty much the same thing.
What exactly is lacking in what Christ taught and ...[text shortened]...
" Follow my commandments"
Etc etc .. he says it ad nauseum .. do you need references ?
07 Aug 10
Originally posted by micahchuSo I'm right 😉
Hello all, I am new to this site, and have been enjoying reading the discussions here, although as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I am sorry to see that there are some mis-understandings about our beliefs here, so I will try to clarify some if I can.
What Menace says here is partly correct, but an oversimplification that becomes incorrect when stated that ...[text shortened]... duals who did not know and serve Jehovah, will get a future opportunity to gain God’s favor.
Manny
07 Aug 10
Originally posted by Rajk999Sounds like Our friends the JW's no doubt
This might help. Here are some characteristics of cults:
http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/uploads/CultCharacteristics.htm
I would say that the JW exhibit the following : 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 14
Just my opinion.
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1. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to displa ...[text shortened]... 14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
Manny
07 Aug 10
Does the fact that there are also spiritual Jews eliminate completely the natural Jews - the descendents of Jacob? Were there not thousands of faithful from the time of Abraham, Issac and Jacob right on until the coming of Christ? Cannot all these faithful Jews be counted as part of the 144,000? To be honest your argument make no sense.
Paul answered this with a NO
Romans 11 speaks of this
07 Aug 10
Originally posted by menace71The only problem with the ones you've named is none of them knew anything about the a heavenly resurrection at all as did no one else before Jesus came to earth. They knew of an earthly resurrection some time in the future but that was it. And if you follow Rajj's words of wisdom, they would not qualify as the were not virgins. Seems to cloudy up that issue.
Does the fact that there are also spiritual Jews eliminate completely the natural Jews - the descendents of Jacob? Were there not thousands of faithful from the time of Abraham, Issac and Jacob right on until the coming of Christ? Cannot all these faithful Jews be counted as part of the 144,000? To be honest your argument make no sense.
Paul answered this with a NO
Romans 11 speaks of this
So if you were to really research that in your Bible you'd see that Jesus made news of this when on earth and spoke of 2 different groups. 1, the Little Flock, will be resurrected to heaven to rule with Jesus over, 2 the "Great Crowd which no man can number" who will be living here on earth as we were ment to be from the creation of Adam.
07 Aug 10
1 edit
Romans 11 (New American Standard Bible)
Romans 11
Israel Is Not Cast Away
1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
it goes on to explain
Manny
07 Aug 10
Originally posted by galveston75Well thats interesting ....
The only problem with the ones you've named is none of them knew anything about the a heavenly resurrection at all as did no one else before Jesus came to earth. They knew of an earthly resurrection some time in the future but that was it. And if you follow Rajj's words of wisdom, they would not qualify as the were not virgins. Seems to cloudy up that is ...[text shortened]... n number" who will be living here on earth as we were ment to be from the creation of Adam.
The Oldies did not know so therefore they cant be rewarded.
Those after Christ knew, therefore they will be rewarded.
Its all about knowing about the 144,000?
How did you arrive at the conclusion that the older generations of Israel did not know and how do you know that if they dont know then they cannot benefit from that reward?