"How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?"

Originally posted by twhitehead
That is a general problem with doctrine. What I find hilarious and sad at the same time is the number of people who see it in other peoples doctrine but not their own.

Yes. I had a conversation with a Christian not that long ago where he drew a distinction between the 'credible' miracles in the Bible and the 'ridiculous' miracles in other religions.

He genuinely could not see why I had a problem with this.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way'" -C.S. Lewis. "Religion is the fashionable substitute for belief." -Oscar Wilde. "Everything you add to the truth subtracts from the truth. When truth is discovered by someone else, it loses something of its attractiv ...[text shortened]... ut first it will piss you off." -M. Pancoast
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Oh dear. More irrelevant commentary.

The contention is not that gods will should be done, but whether torturing people in an eternal furnace is gods will.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That is a general problem with doctrine. What I find hilarious and sad at the same time is the number of people who see it in other peoples doctrine but not their own.

I think I understand your issue with even mild irrationality.

Originally posted by divegeester
Oh dear. More irrelevant commentary.

The contention is not that gods will should be done, but whether torturing people in an eternal furnace is gods will.

"Note: The older you get the more unlearning is required to learn; and it's damn painful, because it entails admitting to yourself that you had it sideways or backwards wrong all those years. The moment of truth is nonetheless desirable."

dive, you still fail to grasp the absolute reality that God's Righteousness and Justice cannot be divorced from His Love.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That is a general problem with doctrine. What I find hilarious and sad at the same time is the number of people who see it in other peoples doctrine but not their own.

Well nobody is immune from irrationality, but this eternal torment business, takes the cake.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
dive, you still fail to grasp the absolute reality that God's Righteousness and Justice cannot be divorced from His Love.

Bob, you believe in a version of god who is content to torture people by burning them in a furnace for eternity.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well nobody is immune from irrationality, but this eternal torment business, takes the cake.

Only from your point of view. From my point of view it is only one of many irrational beliefs theist have, and I am fairly sure you hold quite a number yourself.
Do you have any doctrine?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Only from your point of view. From my point of view it is only one of many irrational beliefs theist have, and I am fairly sure you hold quite a number yourself.
Do you have any doctrine?

Yep .. Matt chapters 5, 6 and 7.

I dont believe in anything else.

Originally posted by divegeester
Bob, you believe in a version of god who is content to torture people by burning them in a furnace for eternity.

Bob believes in the absolute truth of the inspired, inerrant Word of God, which clearly states [even in the weakest English Translation] that God is not willing that anyone [any human being including members of your family or mine] should perish [be separated from God in heaven and all other believers in Christ for eternity]. The Lake of Fire is designed and prepared for Satan and one third of the angelic creation which revolted against God in prehistoric eternity past by rejecting their first estate [happiness in heaven serving and glorifying God]. Imagine the arrogance of Satan wanting to replace God!

Human beings, all of whom have sinned, who choose/decide against rather than for Christ who propitiated [satisfied] the Father's Justice for all of the sins of mankind by suffering excruciating separation from God during His voluntary crucifixion [while every sin committed by the human race past, present and future was imputed to Christ and judged] will also be condemned to the Lake of Fire with Satan and the fallen angels because they have by their own self determination/volition rejected God's Grace Gift of salvation and eternal life with God in Heaven. All occupants of the Lake of Fire will be alone while their entire material and immaterial beings suffer the second death bodily and mentally. Each will be alone: yes, solitary confinement with only the "worm that never dies" [which refers to their memories of having had the opportunity to say "yes" rather than "no" repeatedly to God's efforts to reconcile them to Himself] for company. God made things simple, so simple that a child can understand. Faith alone in Christ alone is salvation. Christ did the work by executing the Father's Plan.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Bob believes in the absolute truth of the inspired, inerrant Word of God, which clearly states [even in the weakest English Translation] that God is not willing that anyone [any human being including members of your family or mine] should perish [be separated from God in heaven and all other believers in Christ for eternity]. The Lake of F ...[text shortened]... d. Faith alone in Christ alone is salvation. Christ did the work by executing the Father's Plan.

Thank you for you explanation in what you believe. Unfortunately it does not address my points of why the second death on its finality, is actually not final, but hey, your version of God says "good news...it's not a second death it's eternal life! Yes you have eternal life...but the bad news you will spend it in a furnace having your flesh melted forever while I watch.

What you believe is not explicit in scripture and is not aligned with the nature of god. It is actually a contradiction of the second "death", a contradiction of God is love, a contradiction of mercy triumphs over judgement.

It is a horrendous indictment of the gospel.

Originally posted by FMF
Indeed, you say "people can make all the claims they want". So just to be clear rather than wishy washy, do you claim to be a Christian? Do myou concede that, if later you lose you faith, the claim you make now will have been untrue?

I cannot deny what has happen to me with God, so I'm not worried about
"losing faith". God started something within me, and I believe God will
complete it, it is on God. Which is why I find your claims about once being
a Christian *knowing God* then denying Him something that does not
smack of truth when it comes to really ever having God in your life at all.
You cannot have God in your life, then turn around and say no it wasn't
real, without one of those two statements being really false.

You can claim you 'thought' you had God in your life, but later realized you
really didn't, or if you really did have God in your life, you now saying it was
not real is the real false statement. We have covered this before, and seems
a bit of a worthless conversation to have to go over it all again.
Kelly

Originally posted by Rajk999
Yep .. Matt chapters 5, 6 and 7.

I dont believe in anything else.

So you never extrapolate on that doctrine?

What could you say in your defense to someone who said to you:

It demonstrates how simple it is to start off with one false doctrine and then a string of more ridiculous false ones follow.

Originally posted by divegeester
Thank you for you explanation in what you believe. Unfortunately it does address my points of why the second death on its finality, is actually not final, but hey, your version of God says "good news...it's not a second death it's eternal life! Yes you have eternal life...but the bad news you will spend it in a furnace having your flesh melted forever wh ...[text shortened]... contradiction of mercy triumphs over judgement.

It is a horrendous indictment of the gospel.

As always, dive, I respect your right to disagree and to promote points of view diametrically opposed to what I have learned from pastor/teachers who teach from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek Languages in which the scripture was written.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you never extrapolate on that doctrine?

What could you say in your defense to someone who said to you:

It demonstrates how simple it is to start off with one false doctrine and then a string of more ridiculous false ones follow.

I try not to extrapolate. I think the words of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount are clear and needs no further explanation.

Someone says that to me? Then follow it up with some examples .. like I did. Then I would have something to defend.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I cannot deny what has happen to me with God, so I'm not worried about
"losing faith". God started something within me, and I believe God will
complete it, it is on God. Which is why I find your claims about once being
a Christian *knowing God* then denying Him something that does not
smack of truth when it comes to really ever having God in your life a ...[text shortened]... his before, and seems
a bit of a worthless conversation to have to go over it all again.
Kelly

If I can butt in, I agree with you on this Kelly, but the key in terms of debate (not reality) is perception. FMF as you say, may have believed he was saved, but wasn't. Or he may have been saved and now believes he isn't, but was and is just awy from god. Or he believes it is irrelevant, but it isn't or it is . One of these 3 is true.