05 Apr 14
Originally posted by divegeester"this stuff" God has revealed to mankind. Justice and Righteousness [Divine Integrity] are present in everything He does.
I have no idea why you are posting this stuff. The rest of your post has nothing to do with either the argument that "death" equates to "eternal suffering", which you seem incapable of addressing and in denial of the obvious contradiction. Nor does the rest of your post address the moral standpoint (within the Christian context) that should justice be required then that justice should include being burned alive for eternity.
05 Apr 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyGB, a further albeit top line explanation of 'what' you wrote does not increase its relevance to this thread topic or specifically my challenges to you; it is astonishing that you lack the capacity to understand this.
"this stuff" God has revealed to mankind. Justice and Righteousness [Divine Integrity] are present in everything He does.
05 Apr 14
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterOriginally posted by divegeester
The topic of 'annihilation', [as opposed to eternal suffering] is completely relevant to this thread, why would you think it not. In fact the juxtaposing doctrines are well documented for centuries which is why I was asking you what sources you had read that disagreed with your viewpoint, but you seemed to be incapable for finding any during your 4 day research exploration.
The topic of 'annihilation', [as opposed to eternal suffering] is completely relevant to this thread, why would you think it not. In fact the juxtaposing doctrines are well documented for centuries which is why I was asking you what sources you had read that disagreed with your viewpoint, but you seemed to be incapable for finding any during your 4 day research exploration.
____________________________________________________________
That's why I introduced it....
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 11)
divegeester, I did my best to find legitimate biblical points of difference. This academic source was the most comprehensive:
Annihilationism
"Annihilationism is the belief that the final fate of those who are not saved is literal and final death and destruction. It runs counter to the mainstream traditional Christian understanding of hell as eternal suffering and separation from God.
In contrast to the more traditional view, which holds that the wicked will remain conscious in hell forever, annhilationism teaches that, whether or not God may use hell to exact some conscious punishment for sins, he will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked completely, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality. This is essentially a moot point for Universalists since in their view all will be saved and hell will one day be empty.
Each of the three views, Annihilationism, Eternal Torment and Universalism, has at least one major feature in common with the alternatives. Universalism and Eternal Torment both affirm that everyone will have immortality. Universalism and Annihilationism affirm that evil will one day no longer exist, and Annihilationism and Eternal Torment both affirm that some will be punished eternally, without remedy. For the annihilationist, however, eternal punishment is seen as "permanent elimination."
Conditional immortality
The doctrine of Annihilationism is often, although not always, bound-up with the notion of Conditional Immortality, a belief that the soul is not innately immortal. At death, both the wicked and righteous..."
Annihilationism today
Today many traditionalists claim that the doctrine is most often associated with groups descended from William Miller and the Adventist movement of the mid-1800s, including Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other Adventist groups. However, a number of evangelical theologians, including Anglican John Stott, Church of Christ elder Edward Fudge, Open Theists Clark Pinnock and John Sanders, as well as Philip Edgecombe Hughes and others have offered support for the doctrine, touching off a heated debate within mainstream evangelical Christianity.
Since the 1960s, Annihilationism seems to be gaining as a legitimate minority opinion within modern, conservative Protestant theology. It has found support and acceptance among some British evangelicals, although viewed with greater suspicion by their American counterparts." (Part Two)
http://www.theopedia.com/Annihilationism
____________________________________________________________
Originally posted by divegeester
Thanks; reading that copy/paste dump completely clarified how "death" is the same thing as "living eternally in suffering". Not.
____________________________________________________________
... and then welcomed discussion of the topic with Suzianne:
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by Suzianne
Since I consider myself perhaps one of the more vocal proponents of Annihilationism, consider this post only my first salvo in what may become an interesting conversation, and hopefully not just a "my opinion is obviously correct, and be quiet and learn" moment for you.
Sure, Suzi. May I suggest that you consider opening the topic of "Annihilationism"
up to a wider audience by giving it thread status of its own. I'll contribute.
05 Apr 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYou see there you go...9 inches of copy/paste to say absolutely nothing except contradict yourself and keep this 'JW wannabe' thread going.
Originally posted by divegeester
The topic of 'annihilation', [as opposed to eternal suffering] is completely relevant to this thread, why would you think it not. In fact the juxtaposing doctrines are well documented for centuries which is why I was asking you what sources you had read that disagreed with your viewpoint, but you seemed to be inc ...[text shortened]... nnihilationism"
up to a wider audience by giving it thread status of its own. I'll contribute.
05 Apr 14
Originally posted by divegeesterOriginally posted by divegeester
Can you define "prominent" in this context and its relevance to how "death" equates to "eternal suffering"
What has "justice" got to do with burning people in a fire for eternity?
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
The Lake of Fire is part of God's Word. Absolute Justice and Perfect Righteousness [which equal Divine Integrity] are Immutable Attributes of God's Sovereign Character. God's Justice cannot deny itself... if it could He wouldn't be God.
"God is consistent and changes not." (Mal. 3:6); "... with Him there is no variableness or turning." (Jas. 1:17). His word does not equivocate, saying “yes” from one perspective but “no” from another (2 Cor. 1:18; cf. Matt. 5:37). Therefore His standards of conduct do not contradict each other, approving and disapproving of the same things depending upon which theme in New Testament ethics we are considering." "God’s Law In New Testament: Ethical Themes" (—Paf.t. 1) by Greg L. Bahnsen, Th.M., Ph.D. http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/a_pdfs/newslet/bahnsen/7907.pdf
"... God doesn't reject unbelievers; the unbeliever rejects the love of God that was demonstrated at Christ's crucifixion on Golgotha Hill as a substitute for all mankind." (Page 11)
Originally posted by divegeester
Can you define "prominent" in this context and its relevance to how "death" equates to "eternal suffering"
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 10)
Past few days I've searched for biblical leeway but have found only confirmation. Annihilation of unbelievers is not part of God's Plan. "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms." Rev 20:14 I'll continue searching. -Bob
The present focus on God's Absolute Justice and The Lake of Fire in this thread are also an example of "prominent".
05 Apr 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyNo, you asked suzi to take the topic of "annihilation" to another thread, I said you were wrong to do so because it's relevant to this thread, and now you are defending your position by showing that it was you who brought the topic up in the first place. Are you confused?
You've asked questions tonight that were replied a day or two ago. Brought them forward as a courtesy to your memory.