Originally posted by ColettiYou are wrong.
Since true is true - literally true is redundant.
A fairy tale can be entirely fictional but contain in it moral Truths about the
world.
The story of the Prodigal Son is, without a doubt, a fictional story that Jesus
told (that is, the sons and father didn't really exist, they were just characters
that Jesus made up to make a moral point). Are you saying that because they
lack 'true' characters, they do not depict 'Truth?'
I don't think you are.
This is why the Bible can be entirely fictional and contain Truth. It does not
need to be literally true in order to be figuratively True.
See my example above with Jonah, which I believe to be entirely fictional
and is among the most moving stories in the Bible.
That is, if the 1:1 read: And Moses told this parable: There once was a man
named Jonah... would you feel the story had less meaning? I wouldn't.
Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess Express
No, you are not following the stream. Jesus is remarkable because of the purpose that God sent him to earth. He is remarkable for what he accomplished, and for what he continues to accomplish. The miracles are a big part of that. You don’t accept this, and so your understanding of the truth is limited to your human logic.
Actually, it seems that it is your understanding that is limited by your lack of
understanding of logic. For example:
Jesus performed miracles.
Honi the Circle-Drawer performed miracles.
Apollonius of Tyana performed miracles.
Eleazar the exorcist performed miracles.
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~dfalk/courses/jesus/miracles.htm
http://www.moshereiss.org/christianity/02_tradition/02_tradition.htm
Do the miracles mean that they are famous? No. What does? What distinguishes
Jesus from Apollonius? You tell me.
This shows how little you know of what’s actually going on in the world. We are currently at war over the differences in Islam.
LOL! We are at war because we are protecting our financial interests. Religion
wasn't cited as the major factor for going to war and it remains a side issue for
most people (except chancremechanic). The fact is Islam has nothing to do
with what motivates terrorists. They are fanatics, not Moslems, and the vast
majority of the Moslem population affirms this.
I don’t know too many Christians who are likely to convert to Islam, and Catholics are Christians as well. They don’t worship idols, they worship God. Marry is a reminder of God to them as Jesus is a reminder of God to other Christians. You don’t see Christian blowing themselves up to kill as many innocent tax payers as possible.
I see lots of travesties being effected in the name of Christianity (I listed some
above) such as hate crimes against homosexuals and the murder of abortion
doctors.
Wrong, Jesus told us that he who saves his body but rejects God will not go to Heaven. The miracles have everything to do with peoples faith and spirit. Take the example of Saul being converted to Paul. In a miracle Jesus converted the biggest persecutor of Christians to a saint in a few sentences.
Miracles are magic tricks to get people to believe something that they should
believe without them. For example, if Jesus reeeeeeeeeeealy wanted to prove
to people He was the Son of God such that no person in their right mind would
ever, ever, ever, EVER disbelieve it, he could appear right now in Times Square
do a few healings, turn water into wine, and float up to heaven. That would
close the matter now and forever.
But Jesus's point was that blessed are the people who have not seen and
still believe. That is, the miracles were just ways to get people's attention
because people tend to pay more attention to their body than their soul. Then,
after the miracles came the teaching. Without the teaching, the miracles
are just party tricks. But, without the miracles, the teachings remains a
profound reflection of the Divine Will.
The miracles that Jesus performed form a foundation for many peoples faith. You somehow claim that the crucifixion was unremarkable and/or irrelevant. This shows just how little you understand of Christianity.
You have demonstrated a lack of understanding of Christianity repeatedly. When
you make foolish accusations like I don't understand it -- that I'm not in the 'in
crowd' refering to my magic Christian decoder ring -- it just serves to irritate the
matter.
Yes, the miracles provided the attention-getter for people. St John 10:38 and 14:11
demonstrate this. They got people's attentions because people were too focused on
themselves and their flesh to attend to the content of Jesus's teaching. But, once
they got passed the corporial magic and started focusing on matters of spiritual healing,
then they started to get what Christianity is all about.
Consider I Cor 13:1-4. The ability to do great earthly things but never touching the
spiritual lives of people is a meaningless quality. But, to touch someone spiritually
is greater than any act of the corporeal.
Answers aren’t necessarily false just because they don’t make sense to you. This is a point you should consider.
Answers are false when one can show the method of arguing is flawed. The starting
point of this thread -- that there were four people crucified with Jesus -- is an excellent
example. The assertion is based on an utterly flawed understanding of Greek in an
effort to preserve the truism that the Bible cannot contain any error of fact (when this
can be easily proven false).
If it did then why would Jesus have told parables? The morals that can be gained by such parables are the tip of the iceberg, and yet you want to believe that they are the ultimate truth. There is a lot more to Jesus and Christianity then morals.
Are you saying there is some larger Truth the the Prodigal Son?
Yes, your faith is in your own human logic.
If you are saying that belief in God entails that I must be willing to concede
that 2+2=5, then all you're doing is saying that religion is like Orwell's 1984.
If belief in God entails the denial of logic, then God is indeed a pervert, for He
created a logical universe.
This is not true. If it were true I could never expect to make progress. The Bible is more than just a guidebook of morals. This is an additional truth you should consider.
You said it yourself: Nothing I say or do will ever convince you that there are
literal errors in the Bible. By your own admission, you can never expect to
make progress, for the Bible has become to you as an idol, a golden calf.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioActually, it seems that it is your understanding that is limited by your lack of understanding of logic. For example:
Originally posted by The Chess Express
No, you are not following the stream. Jesus is remarkable because of the purpose that God sent him to earth. He is remarkable for what he accomplished, and for what he continues to accomplish. The miracles are a big part of that. You don’t accept this, and so your understanding of the truth is limited to your human ...[text shortened]... expect to
make progress, for the Bible has become to you as an idol, a golden calf.
Nemesio[/b]
Jesus performed miracles.
Honi the Circle-Drawer performed miracles.
Apollonius of Tyana performed miracles.
Eleazar the exorcist performed miracles.
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~dfalk/courses/jesus/miracles.htm
http://www.moshereiss.org/christianity/02_tradition/02_tradition.htm
Do the miracles mean that they are famous? No. What does? What distinguishes Jesus from Apollonius? You tell me.
This answer will do. If you can’t figure it out with logic then so be it.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
No, you are not following the stream. Jesus is remarkable because of the purpose that God sent him to earth. He is remarkable for what he accomplished, and for what he continues to accomplish. The miracles are a big part of that. You don’t accept this, and so your understanding of the truth is limited to your human logic.
LOL! We are at war because we are protecting our financial interests. Religion wasn't cited as the major factor for going to war and it remains a side issue for most people (except chancremechanic). The fact is Islam has nothing to do with what motivates terrorists. They are fanatics, not Moslems, and the vast majority of the Moslem population affirms this.
You must not be keeping up on world events. Islam is a religion. Whether Islam teaches violence or not it is being used to brainwash tens of thousands. Where do you think the term “religious fanatic” comes from? Have you heard of 9/11 yet? The Taliban? Osama Bin Laden? The Holy land? Afghanistan? They’re not very logical so I can see how they would escape your attention.
I see lots of travesties being effected in the name of Christianity (I listed some above) such as hate crimes against homosexuals and the murder of abortion doctors.
Christians mostly demonstrate peacefully. There are exceptions of coarse. With 2 billion followers not all are saints. Still, there is no comparison between the Islam of the middle east and Christianity of the west in terms of violence. Christians don’t live under an oppressive dictatorship that forces their fanatical interpretation of religion down their throats every day, or financially rewards the families of suicide bombers.
Miracles are magic tricks to get people to believe something that they should believe without them. For example, if Jesus reeeeeeeeeeealy wanted to prove to people He was the Son of God such that no person in their right mind would ever, ever, ever, EVER disbelieve it, he could appear right now in Times Square do a few healings, turn water into wine, and float up to heaven. That would close the matter now and forever.
That would not produce the type of followers that God wants. I don’t expect you to understand this.
But Jesus's point was that blessed are the people who have not seen and still believe. That is, the miracles were just ways to get people's attention because people tend to pay more attention to their body than their soul. Then, after the miracles came the teaching. Without the teaching, the miracles are just party tricks. But, without the miracles, the teachings remains a profound reflection of the Divine Will.
To believe the way that Jesus wants us to believe is to believe in the miracles that he performed as well as his teachings, particularly the crucifixion. This is part of what Jesus meant when he said that. This is why you don’t believe in Jesus, and this is why you think that it’s necessary to discredit him.
John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
Believing in the miracles is essential to the teachings of Jesus. Why don’t you try believing even though you haven’t seen? Rather than focus on morals or try to logically refute the miracles and Jesus’ work here, why not focus on your afterlife.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
The miracles that Jesus performed form a foundation for many peoples faith. You somehow claim that the crucifixion was unremarkable and/or irrelevant. This shows just how little you understand of Christianity.
You have demonstrated a lack of understanding of Christianity repeatedly. When you make foolish accusations like I don't understand it
You don’t understand it. How can you? The crucifixion is essential to Christianity, not your interpretations of the morals. The morals that Jesus teaches are important, but they’re not the half of it. Jesus’ God given mission on this earth is what’s important. This includes the crucifixion and all that it entails, as well as the many other miracles.
Yes, the miracles provided the attention-getter for people. St John 10:38 and 14:11 demonstrate this. They got people's attentions because people were too focused on themselves and their flesh to attend to the content of Jesus's teaching. But, once they got passed the corporial magic and started focusing on matters of spiritual healing, then they started to get what Christianity is all about.
Consider I Cor 13:1-4. The ability to do great earthly things but never touching the spiritual lives of people is a meaningless quality. But, to touch someone spiritually is greater than any act of the corporeal.
This is not exactly what Paul is saying here, but it’s interesting that you would make this point after suggesting something like “he could appear right now in Times Square do a few healings, turn water into wine, and float up to heaven.” You just refuted your own point there. The reason why miracles are not as important as a persons spiritual state is the same reason why Jesus doesn’t do this.
BTW, how do you know that Jesus doesn’t perform miracles in the lives of Christians every day? There are numerous accountants of everyday miracles. The media is full of them. A public display like what you described would be rather disgusting in my opinion. Who are you to suggest that Jesus make a side show of God? What Jesus did 2000 years ago got the ball rolling. Now it is up to us to do our part.
Answers are false when one can show the method of arguing is flawed. The starting point of this thread -- that there were four people crucified with Jesus -- is an excellent example. The assertion is based on an utterly flawed understanding of Greek in an effort to preserve the truism that the Bible cannot contain any error of fact (when this
can be easily proven false).
You’re logic is flawed if you think that the number of people crucified with Jesus makes any difference in regards to Christianity.
If you are saying that belief in God entails that I must be willing to concede that 2+2=5, then all you're doing is saying that religion is like Orwell's 1984.
If belief in God entails the denial of logic, then God is indeed a pervert, for He created a logical universe.
I would say that you are perverted with arrogance if you think that your logic can ever explain God. God has to be experienced not talked about. Try logically explaining colors to a blind person, or the taste of a banana to somebody who has never tried one.
Logic can be used to paint any picture, most of which are wrong. Do you really expect to explain one such as Jesus who lived 2000 years ago through your logic?
You said it yourself: Nothing I say or do will ever convince you that there are literal errors in the Bible.
What I said was that you’ll never be able to discredit Jesus. Typical that you would misinterpret what I say.
By your own admission, you can never expect to make progress, for the Bible has become to you as an idol, a golden calf.
You don’t have the foggiest idea what the Bible is. It is you who worship the words but not the author, the morals but not the substance. The Bible is far more of a golden calf to you.
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Originally posted by NemesioI love His word too, but I am speaking of a real relationship, that involves prayer and answered prayer. Jesus Christ is alive and well.
When you say 'I love God,' what does that entail? Be specific, because
I'll bet it entails in large part attending to His Word (that is, loving the Book).
Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Christians mostly demonstrate peacefully. There are exceptions of coarse. With 2 billion followers not all are saints. Still, there is no comparison between the Islam of the middle east and Christianity of the west in terms of violence. Christians don’t live under an oppressive dictatorship that forces their fanatical interpretation of religion down their throats every day, or financially rewards the families of suicide bombers
Of course there is a comparison, between the violence, what about the violence in northern Ireland, caused between the religious differences of the protestants & catholics. Plenty of Bombs & innocent people killed here.
The majority of muslims just like the majority of christains don't want war, they want peace so that they can get on with the business of living their lives.
Zealots, or religious fanatics are a danger which ever religion they come from. Your point on oppressive dictatorships spreading fanatical ideas through religion, & rewarding families of suicide bombers with money, may have some validness. However corrupt men of power have always use religion/money as a tool to control the population.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
The miracles are essential to Jesus’ teachings. What do you think the crucifixion was about? Just because there are magicians that can fool people does not mean that true miracles never happen.
Personnelly I believe that the crucfixion was all about the Jewish religious leaders trying to get rid of Jesus, because of his new radical religious ideas. I don't believe that he died on the cross, and feel that the accention to heaven story, was a cover enabling Jesus to escape free of harm. I suppose I lean towards these theories that he travelled to India after the crucfixion. I agree that neither this version or the version in the bible can be proved as true. However at least this version, has some rationallity behind it & falls within the boundaries of human capability.
Everybody will take what they will from the Bible; in order to get the full message though, it is necessary to believe in God and his miracles.
I don't see why, a good ethical philosophy can stand on its own, without the need for a god.
Originally posted by checkbaiter
Well He didn't raise Himself, God raised Him from the dead. There were over 500 witnessess that verify this. Of course they are all dead now. But I am not here to prove anything to you or anyone else. Time alone will take care of that.
Of course because neither you, I, nor anybody on the planet can prove any of it.
I can't change anyone's mind on anything.
you can, you can change your own mind
It so happens that God works on the hearts of men after they are presented with the truths of His word. That is all I am here for. Christians preach the word of God and then the choice is yours, take it or leave it. The responsibility ultimately lies with you and God. It is obvious you have made your choice, so be it.
My choice is always changing, I subscribe to the philosophy, take what you find is usefull and make it your own, that which is useless discard.
Jesus claimed He had no power whatsoever.
& I believe him 🙂
Originally posted by Jay PeateaOriginally posted by The Chess Express
Personnelly I believe that the crucfixion was all about the Jewish religious leaders trying to get rid of Jesus, because of his new radical religious ideas. I don't believe that he died on the cross, and feel that the accention to heaven story, was a cover enabling Jesus to escape free of harm. I suppose I lean towards these theories that he travelle ...[text shortened]... ast this version, has some rationallity behind it & falls within the boundaries of human capability.
The miracles are essential to Jesus’ teachings. What do you think the crucifixion was about? Just because there are magicians that can fool people does not mean that true miracles never happen.
Personnelly I believe that the crucfixion was all about the Jewish religious leaders trying to get rid of Jesus, because of his new radical religious ideas. I don't believe that he died on the cross, and feel that the accention to heaven story, was a cover enabling Jesus to escape free of harm. I suppose I lean towards these theories that he travelled to India after the crucfixion. I agree that neither this version or the version in the bible can be proved as true. However at least this version, has some rationallity behind it & falls within the boundaries of human capability.
Of coarse you can believe what you will. We are all free to choose whatever religion we like or none at all. It’s refreshing to know where you stand, though I probably could have guessed.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Everybody will take what they will from the Bible; in order to get the full message though, it is necessary to believe in God and his miracles.[/b]
I don't see why, a good ethical philosophy can stand on its own, without the need for a god.
If you’re talking about a philosophy book, sure. The Bible is all about God and miracles. It’s better to accept it for what it is. As I said, the morals and philosophy are just the tip of the iceberg.