Originally posted by @sonshipWell, seems like after making a point that others can't refute, more often than not I end up facing questions unrelated to the issue at hand - evidently in an attempt to deflect from that fact.
If God doesn't exist what need is there for forgiveness either temporal or eternal?
What ultimate government has been transgressed against, if Atheism is true?
In fact what transgression has been committed if there is no law giving God?
When I come back I will respect and give attention to your question. In the meantime don't [b] ignore mine behind a lot of "C'mon jaywills".[/b]
It's a cheap tactic. Why not simply admit that you're unable to refute my point?
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Originally posted by @thinkofoneI am touching more than one subject and I admit that I would like to spend more time on this particular point.
Well, seems like after making a point that others can't refute, more often than not I end up facing questions unrelated to the issue at hand - evidently in an attempt to deflect from that fact.
It's a cheap tactic. Why not simply admit that you're unable to refute my point?
That I admit.
And this is not for your sake.
It is for the sake of some others whose hearts are not padlocked closed by your kind of pro-crypto atheism.
You should know from past conversations, that I have no problem in saying that I want to look at some passage brought up with more time and attention.
You have a long, long, LONG way to go before you come up with some supposed "irrefutable" argument against the Gospel here.
You haven't had a slam dunk argument for your Godless, Christless "Bible teaching" for years here.
14 Apr 18
Originally posted by @sonshipHear hear.
I am touching more than one subject and I admit that I would like to spend more time on this particular point.
That I admit.
And this is not for your sake.
It is for the sake of some others whose hearts are not padlocked closed by your kind of pro-crypto atheism.
You should know from past conversations, that I have no problem in saying that I want ...[text shortened]... u haven't had a slam dunk argument for your Godless, Christless "Bible teaching" for years here.
Originally posted by @sonshipThe fact remains that after making a point that others can't refute, more often than not I end up facing questions unrelated to the issue at hand - evidently in an attempt to deflect from that fact.
I am touching more than one subject and I admit that I would like to spend more time on this particular point.
That I admit.
And this is not for your sake.
It is for the sake of some others whose hearts are not padlocked closed by your kind of pro-crypto atheism.
You should know from past conversations, that I have no problem in saying that I want ...[text shortened]... u haven't had a slam dunk argument for your Godless, Christless "Bible teaching" for years here.
The fact remains that that's exactly what I've been facing from you since I made my last point.
Your attempt at an explanation for your questions unrelated to the issue at hand amounts to little more than an ad hom wrapping in nonsense.
Are there any Christians on this forum besides rajk999 who can rationally discuss issues?
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14 Apr 18
Originally posted by @thinkofone<<Are there any Christians on this forum besides rajk999 who can rationally discuss issues?>>
The fact remains that after making a point that others can't refute, more often than not I end up facing questions unrelated to the issue at hand - evidently in an attempt to deflect from that fact.
The fact remains that that's exactly what I've been facing from you since I made my last point.
Your attempt at an explanation for your questions unr ...[text shortened]... e.
Are there any Christians on this forum besides rajk999 who can rationally discuss issues?
You mean your fellow Christ denier and modern-day Pharisee?
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14 Apr 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneYou flatter yourself. I typically read the last few posts in threads I’m not following. I used to read your posts until you made a habit of avoiding questions that exposed your doctrines as false and instead attacked those who asked the questions.
Try reading jaywill's posts as well as mine.
14 Apr 18
Originally posted by @romans1009You're definitely amongst those who are unable to rationally discuss issues.
You flatter yourself. I typically read the last few posts in threads I’m not following. I used to read your posts until you made a habit of avoiding questions that exposed your doctrines as false and instead attacked those who asked the questions.
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Originally posted by @thinkofoneYour criticism of me is not only baseless but false as well. You have avoided dozens of questions from myself and other posters that expose your doctrines as false and instead choose to attack instead of allowing yourself to be educated.
You're definitely amongst those who are unable to rationally discuss issues.
Sad!
Originally posted by @romans1009The truly "sad" thing is that you're probably deluded enough to actually believe what you're saying.
Your criticism of me is not only baseless but false as well. You have avoided dozens of questions from myself and other posters that expose your doctrines as false and instead choose to attack instead of allowing yourself to be educated.
Sad!
Face it, you're not all that intelligent, well educated or rational.
"The truth will make you free".
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Originally posted by @thinkofoneThe amount of psychological projection in your posts is staggering.
The truly "sad" thing is that you're probably deluded enough to actually believe what you're saying.
Face it, you're not all that intelligent, well educated or rational.
"The truth will make you free".
15 Apr 18
Originally posted by @romans1009QED
The amount of psychological projection in your posts is staggering.
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What do you do when an Atheist brandishes these OT verses to try to prove he doesn't need redemption from a non-existent God?
His goal is to exalt Humanism and cause some Bible difficulties for believers in the God of the Bible and His plan of salvation.
This will take probably more than one lengthy post.
Here's an example:
ToO:
What are also of importance are the parallels between Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 18
Jeremiah 31
29 “In those days they will not say again,
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30“But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Ezekiel 18
2“What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
‘The fathers eat the sour grapes,
But the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3“As I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. 4“Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 “All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
Each will be judged according to his own ways.
The righteous (those who cease to sin) will live.
Those who continue to sin will die.
For the righteous, none of his transgressions will be remembered against him BECAUSE OF HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Inexplicably in the OP Jaywill asserts that Jeremiah 31 says that "Your sins and your iniquities He will by no means remember any more under the blood of Jesus" when in fact it has nothing to do with being "washed in the blood". Rather it is contingent on the individual becoming righteous (ceasing to sin)
Jeremiah 31:31-34 is about the new covenant God promises to make. This is confirmed by the New Testament in Hebrews 8:10-12; and Hebrews 10:16-17.
This will probably mean nothing to an Atheist. But to the Christian, it is not conjecture or speculation that the prophet Jeremiah was speaking about the new covenant, The oracles of God in the New Testament inform us. That settles it.
ThinkOfOne the Atheist wants to see if he can find something in Jeremiah 31 that will negate the New Testament's revelation that "eternal redemption" is being taught in the new covenant.
He looks to verse 29 to take Jeremiah's words about "In those days" to see if he can work some mischief against Jeremiah's prediction about "Indeed, days are coming."
Verse 29
In those days they will no longer say, The fathers eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are on edge. For every one will die for his own iniquity; every man who eats sour grapes, his own teeth will be set on edge.
This verse is about the eloquently complaining Israelites to face up to the fact that God will hold them rather than their ancestors, responsible for their own sins.
Does verses 29 and 30 make Hebrews wrong that the "new covenant" Jeremiah begins to describe concerns an eternal redemption because of the blood of Christ?
Only if you think ThinkOfOne is more of an expert on the mind of God (Whom he doesn't believe in) then the apostolic writer of the New Testament book Hebrews.
The writer of Hebrews relates the prophecy of the new covenant to be about an "eternal redemption" which of course means the forgiveness of sins is absolute and eternal.
Hebrews 9:12
"And not through the blood of goats and calves but through His own blood, entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, obtaining an eternal redemption."
You decide which person you want to believe.
1.) ThinkOfOne the Atheist who says the washing of the blood of Jesus in the new covenant does not accomplish eternal redemption.
2.) The book of Hebrews which says the "new covenant" predicted in Jeremiah involves the blood of Jesus who obtains for the redeemed "an eternal redemption".
I know who I'm going to follow, the New Testament and the new covenant.
Having said that, I would hasten to add that the book of Hebrews especially in chapter 12 does not give any impression that as God's eternally redeemed sons are learning to BE sons, they are completely without discipline.
And we see in the New Testament some redeemed saints who did actually die ("fallen asleep" ) under the discipline of God. Ie. Some Corinthian Christians coming to the Lord's Table without a reverent regard for the need for their practical sanctification and holy living.
" But let a man prove himself, and in this way let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not discern the body.
Because of this many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we discern ourselves, we would not be judged.
But being judged by the Lord, we are disciplined that we may not be condemned with the world." (1 Cor. 11:28-32)
Eternally redeemed believers in Jesus Christ were disciplined with sickness and even death because of not discerning the sacred holiness of the symbols of Christ's sacrificed body and blood.
They would not be eternally condemned with the world.
All has not been said here yet. The most important thing said here is that Hebrews should be believed over the Atheist's "Bible study" attempting to deny the new covenant's "eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12)
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Both Jeremiah and Ezekiel contain some rebuke to the eloquently complaining Israelites about personal responsibility. They cannot argue with God that everything is the fault of their sinful ancestors.
Hebrews chapters 8,10 and 9 teach that the new covenant is about an eternal redemption obtained by Jesus when He shed His redeeming blood.
ThinkofOne hopes that he can find surrounding verses in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 18 which will prove to himself that he has no need other than to be an Atheist Humanist with a self effort to do better, take responsibility in a universe where God does not exist.
Some people put the Bible away to hide from God.
ThinkOfOne is of a more subtle group. He actually picks up the Bible in order to hide from God.
Hebrews 9 about Jeremiah's prediction:
"And not through the blood of goats and calves but through His own blood entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, obtaining an eternal redemption." (Heb. 9:12
That is the meaning of -
"For I will be propititous to their unrighteousnesses, and their sins I shall by no means remember anymore." (Heb. 8:12 comp. Jer. 31:34)
You decide whose word you are going to take on this - the Atheist's or the book of Hebrews.
He may attempt to portray me as saying that this is the ONLY thing the new covenant is about. The new covenant is not ONLY about forgiveness. It is also about God imparting His life and nature into man. This is also in the New Testament. This is also in Hebrews where Christ will -
"I will impart My laws into their mind, and on their hearts I will inscribe them; and I will be God to them, and they will be a people to me." (Heb. 8:10)
That involves the cooperation of the Christian personally to receive Christ dispensing His Spirit and law of life into more and more of our hearts.
This should be appreciated WITH:
"an eternal redemption" (8:12);
"eternal salvation" (5:9)
and
"eternal redemption" (9:12)
Now ThinkOfOne goes to Ezekiel 18 to shout out something about one's own righteousness.
Each will be judged according to his own ways.
The righteous (those who cease to sin) will live.
Those who continue to sin will die.
For the righteous, none of his transgressions will be remembered against him BECAUSE OF HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Inexplicably in the OP Jaywill asserts that Jeremiah 31 says that "Your sins and your iniquities He will by no means remember any more under the blood of Jesus" when in fact it has nothing to do with being "washed in the blood". Rather it is contingent on the individual becoming righteous (ceasing to sin)
The new covenant first puts the sinner on a righteous standing before God positionally. Because God will impart His law of life into the fabric of their beings, dispositionally, they must be sanctified too.
The process starts with the truth that the redeemed one's righteousness is Jesus Christ Himself. He stand on Christ's merit and through Christ he has become the righteousness of God in Christ.
"Him who did not know sin He made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:21)
I have a standing before God in which I have become the righteousness of God in Christ.
My position from which dispositional sanctification and holy making will occur is as me being justified to the degree that I am God's righteousness in Christ. We cannot get any more justified, forgiven, redeemed then that positionally.
But the Christian needs subjective transformation so that not only his standing is right before God but the fabric of his entire soul is made right too. God's salvation will do this.
Let's not go too far from Hebrews which is the book that quotes Jeremiah 31 explaining that it is the eternal salvation.
Christ as a Great High Priest, is able to save the believers, not just a little bit, but to "the uttermost". As long as Christ lives He lives to intercede for the sanctification and transformation of those on this righteous standing.
"And they [OT priests] are appointed priests many in number because death prevents them from continuing.
But He [Christ] , because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable. Hence also He is able to save to the UTTERMOST those who come forward to God through Him,
since He lives always to intercede for them." (Heb. 7:23-25)
This is not just Christ praying objectively for us in an outward way. It is Christ interceding to work His life to be compounded into the believer's life in a way of union.
This dispensing of His life into believers is the Jeremiah truth of God writing His laws into man's heart and inscribing them into man's inward parts including his mind.
And cooperation with this additional aspect of the new covenant is serious and not without some consequences. There are five warnings in the book of Hebrews which warn to cooperate with this subjective and dispositional aspect of the new covenant.
God can forget our sins as to eternity yet discipline His sons for their transformation.
But let's come back to the blood of Jesus. That is what ThinkOfOne wants to teach is meaningless. He doesn't think he needs eternal redemption through the blood of Christ. If he can convince me that I have no ground to believe this that self encourages him of his good argument.
ThinkOfOne looks to this:
I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
God's personal judgment is exactly what happened when Christ died for me on the cross. It was exceedingly personal. My sins were judged in Jesus Christ on the cross.
Because He is God-man, the significance of His death can be personal and universal. God can do that. We are commanded to have faith that this has occured, in Hebrews too.
"But My righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, My soul does not delight in him.
But we are not of those who shrink back to ruin but of them who have faith to the gaining of the soul." (Heb. 10:38.39)
Those partaking of eternal redemption need to live by faith that their soul subjectively would be gained - sanctified, transformed, conformed to the image of Christ.
It is not through "dead works" of the Atheistic legalistic Humanist we live. But standing on a conscience made pure by the blood of Jesus we are gained in the soul.
"How much more shall THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And because of this He is the Mediator of a new covenant, ... the eternal inheritance" ( See Heb. 9:14,15)
[Most important words to the subject, I included]
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16 Apr 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @rajk999[/b]ThinkOfOne should shortly be here to carry on showing me what he says was my strawman argument.[b]Im doing a survey .. If anyone read all of the last two posts. Please post Yes.
Would you just stay out of the way?
You're attention span does not have the capacity for this analysis. (among other problems)