- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
16 Apr 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneDo you feel picked on?
DG has fully degenerated into full on "troll mode" with an ad hominem attack as he so often does. It's business as usual for him.
Divegeester seems right.
Are you an Atheist Jew who wants to start a new religion cashing in on Jesus as much as you can ?
This is not an ad hom. Athiests that really want to arm themselves with good Anti-Jesus ammunition often of get some from those who are the experts - The Christ Disbelieving Jew.
You Jeremiah and Ezekiel arguments sound much like what one would read from Jews For Judaism "counter missionary" polemics.
Only difference I see is that you want to start a new system of Spirituality with these tools.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
16 Apr 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneHUMOR ME !
I'm suggesting that you figure out the straw man yourself. You do this all the time jaywill. You read what someone has posted, twist it up into something else in your mind and then attack that instead of addressing the topic at hand. In the past, others have pointed that out to you as well. Do you recall that happening?
Where's the strawman argument?
Or I'll assume you're bluffing.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
16 Apr 18
5 edits
Let's look again.
Each will be judged according to his own ways.
The righteous (those who cease to sin) will live.
Those who continue to sin will die.
For the righteous, none of his transgressions will be remembered against him BECAUSE OF HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Inexplicably in the OP Jaywill asserts that Jeremiah 31 says that "Your sins and your iniquities He will by no means remember any more under the blood of Jesus" when in fact it has nothing to do with being "washed in the blood". Rather it is contingent on the individual becoming righteous (ceasing to sin)
Jaywill asserts or the book of Hebrews asserts?
Let's see the major reference to Jeremiah's prophecy in Hebrews
The Christians have a High Priest.
"Now in the things which are being said the chief point is this: We have such a High Priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens." (Heb 8:1)
Remember, ThingOfOne teaches that Jesus' ministry is no longer. He would deny that I have a High Priest as a Mediator between me and God.
Moving over some wonderful sentences we come to this in verse 6.
"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry inasmuch as He is also the Mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted upon better promises." (v.6)
The covenant at the time of Jeremiah and Ezekiel was of God. Jesus is the Mediator of a "better covenant" with "better promises" .
ThinkOfOne is going to argue that the new covenant is not better than the first covenant - the old covenant. He is going to argue that the promises of the old covenant were better.
Now Hebrews say the old covenant, though of God, had some faults.
"For if the first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second." (v.7)
NOW the writer refers to Jeremiah's prediction of a better covenant based on better promises. ThinkOfOne hates the thought of this.
"For finding fault with them He says,
Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, and I will consummate a new covenant upon the house of Israel and upon the house of Judah.
Not according to the covenant which i made with their fathers in the day when i took them by their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in My covenant. and I disregarded them, says the Lord..."
Hebrews 8:10-12 continues to quote Jeremiah 31 about the new covenant.
Is it me asserting something about this new covenant or is it the New Testament? It is the new testament apostolic writing asserting.
Skipping down to the matter of forgiveness (ONE of the features of the new covenant) -
"For I will be propitious to their unrighteousnesses, and their sins I shall by no means remember anymore?"
The writer of Hebrews continues his commentary under inspiration:
In saying, A new covenant, He has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and growing decrepit is near to disappearing. (v.13)
Aspects of the old covenant are growing old, having fault, and becoming decrepit compared to the new covenant.
Now we have to examine exactly WHAT is meant by God being propitious to their sins and their transgressions being forgotten by Him.
Below.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
16 Apr 18
5 edits
Now Hebrews has to inform the Christians what is the meaning of the prophecy -
"For I will be propitious to their unrighteousnesses, and their sins I shall by no means remember anymore."
The meaning is specifically told us in the next chapter 9 in verse 13. The High Priest Jesus has accomplished an eternal redemption through the cleansing of the sinner's sins with His own blood.
"And not through the blood of goats and calves but through His own blood, entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, obtaining an eternal redemption." (v.13)
This is the accomplishment of the Mediator of "a new covenant" .
"And because He is the Mediator of a new covenant, so that, death having taken place for redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant,
those who have been called might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." (v.15)
"[T]he eternal inheritance" and "an eternal redemption" are among the results of this new covenant High Priest cleansing us in His blood.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
16 Apr 18
5 edits
Now, briefly:
1.) Does any of this mean believers should or should want to continue in sin?
Answer: No.
2.) Does this mean God cannot discipline the disobedient because He remembers their sins no more?
Answer: No.
3.) Does this mean that such discipline cannot possibly include even dying the like the old covenant prophets warned?
Answer: No.
Examples of Christians eternally redeemed yet physically expiring are seen in the NT.
4.) Has ThinkOfOne been refuted that Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 18 prove the Gospel of Christ is wrong concerning forgiveness of sins for eternal redemption?
You all tell me.
My opinion is Yes. That is thanks to the New Testament word of God.
16 Apr 18
Following is what I actually posted:
What are also of importance are the parallels between Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 18
Jeremiah 31
29 “In those days they will not say again,
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30“But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Ezekiel 18
2“What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
‘The fathers eat the sour grapes,
But the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3“As I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. 4“Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 “All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
Each will be judged according to his own ways.
The righteous (those who cease to sin) will live.
Those who continue to sin will die.
For the righteous, none of his transgressions will be remembered against him BECAUSE OF HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Inexplicably in the OP Jaywill asserts that Jeremiah 31 says that "Your sins and your iniquities He will by no means remember any more under the blood of Jesus" when in fact it has nothing to do with being "washed in the blood". Rather it is contingent on the individual becoming righteous (ceasing to sin)
The point is that in Jeremiah 31 where God says "“for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”, it is contingent on the individual becoming righteous (ceasing to sin). This is consistent with parallel passages in Ezekiel 18 and Isaiah 1 which I posted earlier. In all three passages God makes it clear that the individual has to become righteous (cease to sin).
From what I could tell, none of what you posted earlier actually addresses this. It talks around it with copious amounts of ad hominem attack.
Any chance that you can actually address the above?
16 Apr 18
3 edits
Originally posted by @sonshipNot clear. For example, I'm guilty for being born. Right? Your God, this all-powerful and all knowing creator, made a mistake and so I go suffer forever.
Be clear that for God to forgive your sins means that He FORGETS your sins
...
Washed in blood, and you think that is a good thing. God you people are weird.
multiple edits just for wierd. Or is it weird. I vote yes.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
17 Apr 18
4 edits
Originally posted by @thinkofone
The point is that in Jeremiah 31 where God says "“for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”, it is contingent on the individual becoming righteous (ceasing to sin).
The Israelites in the audience of Jeremiah and Ezekiel had the Levitical sacrifices under the Aaronic priesthood to offer for their sins.
Hebrews 8 and 9 is explaining that the blood of Christ in the new covenant accomplishes an eternal redemption - what those animal sacrifices were only a foreshadow of.
" And not through the blood of goats and calves but through His own blood, entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, obtaining an eternal redemption.
For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who are defied sanctify to the purity of the flesh.
How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God." (Hebrews 9:12-14)
This eternal redemption is because sins are eternally atoned for.
There is no ad hom associated with the fact of your stubborn denial of this fact. The Mediator of the new covenant shed His blood to accomplish an eternal redemption, nullfying the need for REPEATED sacrifices and offerings for sins under the Aaronic priesthood.
You are in denial of the meaning the book of Hebrews gives of the matter of the sinners sins being remembered no more. That is not an ad hom copious or otherwise.
Now I will tell you what point you are trying to make. That is this:
God doesn't care about the purging of this conscience or the removal of the record of sins before God. Your point is that God only cares that you start to obey His law.
Two points:
This aspect is covered in the new covenant more in the part about God writing His laws in man's inner parts and ALL knowing Him intimately. The new covenant Hebrews speaks to this concern. But the forgiveness is the point of Christ's blood obtaining an eternal redemption.
Furthermore, the cleansing from sin is not just for the cleansing and nothing else. It is so that the forgiven one would "serve the living God" hence forth,
"How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God purify our conscience from dead works ...
TO SERVE THE LIVING GOD." (v.14)
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
17 Apr 18
2 edits
The purifying is to bring the man with a clear conscience as to all the past, into organic relationship of life with "the living God" to serve Him. That of course would mean righteous living.
This is consistent with parallel passages in Ezekiel 18 and Isaiah 1 which I posted earlier. In all three passages God makes it clear that the individual has to become righteous (cease to sin).
You do not understand God or how deep our need for redemption.
If from this moment on for the rest of your life, you lived perfectly righteously, that does nothing for your past record.
You argue - " But I turn over a new leaf, become righteous, and based on that God forgives the past."
Hebrews 8 and 9 comparing the new covenant with the old covenant says that the animal sacrifices repeated year after year were "unable to perfect".
"The Holy Spirit thus making this clear, that the way of the Holy of Holies has not yet been manifested while the first tabernacle still has its standing.
Which is a figure for the present time. According to this tabernacle both gifts and sacrifices for are offeredm which are UNABLE TO PERFECT, according to conscience, him who worships." (Heb. 9:8,9)
The imperfection and limitation of this priestly services of the Old Testament audience of Jeremiah and Ezekiel is contrasted with the perfecting of the blood of Christ the new covenant High Priest.
"But Christ, having come as a High Priest of the good things that have come into being, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
And not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, ... obtained an eternal redemption." (vs.11,12)
Your attempts to relegate the redeeming blood of Christ to irrelevancy for the "new covenant" is just Atheistic rebellion. No "copious ad homs," just fact.
You want self perfection to justify your conscience.
And there is no "living God" to serve or obey in Atheism.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
17 Apr 18
6 edits
From what I could tell, none of what you posted earlier actually addresses this. It talks around it with copious amounts of ad hominem attack.
You wish to make both covenants have nothing to do with redeeming blood but only Humanistic / Atheistic self improvement. Hebrews in comparing the old and the new covenant says that they BOTH were initiated by sacrificial blood.
"Hence neither was the first covenant initiated without blood." (9:18)
That of course means that in both covenants, blood for purifying the conscience was an integral part.
Any chance that you can actually address the above?
I "actually" addressed it before.
What I might now speak to MORE is the future obedience portion of the new covenant. The future righteous WALK is addressed in the portion about God's laws being written into the inward parts of the recipients of the new covenant.
This is briefly touched when the writer says that purifying of the conscience is that the forgiven one may henceforth turn from dead works and serve by God's indwelling life with its indwelling law "the living God"
This should be spoken to more.
But the OP is about the redeeming blood of Christ in the new covenant.
Your Humanism longs to make that redeeming blood of Christ not important.
You fail badly. And you will likely continue to fail.
17 Apr 18
Originally posted by @sonshipIt's clear that you don't care what Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 18 and Isaiah 1 actually say or don't say. It's also clear that you don't care what I've written either. You just make things up your head regardless of either. What's the point of trying to have a rational discussion with you when that's the case?The point is that in Jeremiah 31 where God says "“for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”, it is contingent on the individual becoming righteous (ceasing to sin).
The Israelites in the audience of [b] Jeremiah and Ezekiel had the Levitical sacrifices under the Aaronic priesthood to offer for ...[text shortened]... God purify our conscience from dead works ...
TO SERVE THE LIVING GOD." (v.14) [/b] [/quote][/b]