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17 Sep 13
Originally posted by divegeester"I don't really see anything other than a mocking smugness often tinged with more than a hint of bitterness."
But why do atheists spend so much time in a spirituality forum? I don't have anything against atheists whatsoever, in fact I have more in common with some than I do with most theists.
I've heard several arguments as to why they do, the most common I remember as being that many of them want to more or less, defend the freethinking world from the hatefu ...[text shortened]... nd we all grew up in. So if you are a confirmed atheist, why bother. It is interesting.
I suppose I do not qualify as a true atheist in your mind, Because I cannot believe that I have not shown "anything but a mocking smugness often tinged with more than a hint of bitterness". But perhaps you are reacting to the extremists here, who are smug and bitter. If so, too bad, the extremists on both sides seem to get all the attention and little of the actual thought.
17 Sep 13
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterI am less interested in why you think you became theist than in the real reasons why you became and remain theist. But those are hard to get at.
In my time here I've also noted that there is rarely shown any human interest in theism nor especially of the individuals who frequent is forum or their reasons for becoming theists.
I also find it interesting that theists always try to persuade others of the validity of theism using justification that was not what caused themselves to believe and often the justification they give they don't even believe themselves.
There is no genuine enquiry of the human condition in regard to the reason to believe, the causality.
I think to some extent this is because we think we know some of the reasons, but largely we don't think asking you how it happened will get us to the truth of the matter.
I don't see anyone here saving the world from the theist or indeed saving the theist from themselves.
I do hope that many atheists on this forum at least, have learnt to think a little more rationally.
I don't really see anything other than a mocking smugness often tinged with more than a hint of bitterness.
The question then is, why are you here? Are you saving the world from the atheist? Are you too engaged in mocking smugness? I would agree with other posters comments in that you come across a bit hypocritical in your OP. This forum is largely debates between theists and non-theists or groups of theists with vastly different beliefs. So for example anything you say in your OP could be applied to you with respect to the JWs could it not?
I don't see you asking how JWs came to their beliefs, or asking Muslims about theirs, and I don't think you have converted a single JW or Muslim in all your time on this forum.
Though I'm mostly a reader and rarely a writer I am very interested in why people believe in god. Unfortunately, theists are very reluctant to talk about that.
Also, it oozes with irony that of all peope divegeester would be asking this question since there might be no-one here who has spent as much time mocking (yes, mocking) Jehovas Witnesses as Divegeester (notice the little story he contributed in the knock knock threat wasn't about atheism, nor was it about Islam and it ofcourse wasn't a sarcastic stab at his own faith. It was about JWs)
This question does deserve a better answer than this, but I have to get to work now, and in the afternoon I have to pick up my copy of GTA V. That's my current god. You may mock that all you want.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyA seemingly common mistake made by many theists. "Those atheists are probably doubting about wether or not god exists." Nope, GB, most atheists aren't doubtful at all (please realize that "doubtful" is is this context not the same as "not knowing for sure" ). That they often engage in discussions pretending that god exists does not change that.
In my online experience, since 2007, many avowed atheists here and elsewhere remind me of Doubting Thomas: highly intelligent, well read and thoughtful people with questions that won't be satisfied by superficial answers. I respect them.
Please, understand this.
17 Sep 13
Originally posted by Great King RatThanks. Yes, your point resonates with statements I've read or heard before. Much of the heat generated while attempting to shed light by opposing viewpoints seems to be caused by the frictions of approaching topics from different starting points. Two people may also focus on identical topics but on different planes, i.e., academic versus personal and miss each other's points entirely. Question: what would you consider to be an atheist's deepest sense of identity, selfhood and destiny?
A seemingly common mistake made by many theists. "Those atheists are probably doubting about wether or not god exists." Nope, GB, most atheists aren't doubtful at all (please realize that "doubtful" is is this context not the same as "not knowing for sure" ). That they often engage in discussions pretending that god exists does not change that.
Please, understand this.
17 Sep 13
I'm not going to answer for "the atheist" because it's pointless. Atheists can be vastly different from each other. The only thing they definitely have in common is a lack of belief in a god.
As for myself. My identity is simply the result of the genetic clash between a spermcell and an eggcell combined with the effect that my surrounding has had and is still having on me. I don't know what else to say about that. If yu're looking for a different kind of answer then please let me know.
Selfhood: haven't a clue what that is. Isn't it the same as identity?
Destination: I will die. I will leave virtually no mark on the earth. An X-amount of years after my death no-one will miss me, no-one will remember me. And I am fine with that.
And this last one is true for the vast majority of earth's inhabitants. Not just atheists. I presume though that atheists in general have less problems with accepting that they will end up being completely irrelevant.
Does this answer your questions?
17 Sep 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYou are right about missing each others points. I don't even understand your question, so won't attempt to answer it.
Two people may also focus on identical topics but on different planes, i.e., academic versus personal and miss each other's points entirely. Question: what would you consider to be an atheist's deepest sense of identity, selfhood and destiny?
I find that you in particular seem to depend on hints and you seem expect others to understand your points despite your vagueness so I find it surprising that you recognize that people may have completely different planes of understanding.
17 Sep 13
Originally posted by divegeesterand it has been answered many times: do you think atheist do not have spirituality? just because they do not personify it?
But why do atheists spend so much time in a spirituality forum? I don't have anything against atheists whatsoever, in fact I have more in common with some than I do with most theists.
I've heard several arguments as to why they do, the most common I remember as being that many of them want to more or less, defend the freethinking world from the hatefu ...[text shortened]... nd we all grew up in. So if you are a confirmed atheist, why bother. It is interesting.
17 Sep 13
Originally posted by Great King RatGKR, do you make a distinction between your material and immaterial being?
I'm not going to answer for "the atheist" because it's pointless. Atheists can be vastly different from each other. The only thing they definitely have in common is a lack of belief in a god.
As for myself. My identity is simply the result of the genetic clash between a spermcell and an eggcell combined with the effect that my surrounding has had a ...[text shortened]... that they will end up being completely irrelevant.
Does this answer your questions?
17 Sep 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadtwhitehead, which points require clarification?
You are right about missing each others points. I don't even understand your question, so won't attempt to answer it.
I find that you in particular seem to depend on hints and you seem expect others to understand your points despite your vagueness so I find it surprising that you recognize that people may have completely different planes of understanding.
17 Sep 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadI'm here because I enjoy the the overall cut and thrust of the arguments/debates which would be much less if there were no atheists here. Your point though is well noted as I am NOT here to preach, evangelise or particularly seek enlightenment, although I have learnt quite a lot during my time here.
I am less interested in why you think you became theist than in the real reasons why you became and remain theist. But those are hard to get at.
I also find it interesting that theists always try to persuade others of the validity of theism using justification that was not what caused themselves to believe and often the justification they give they don't ...[text shortened]... and I don't think you have converted a single JW or Muslim in all your time on this forum.
17 Sep 13
Originally posted by JS357Correct my comment was somewhat sweeping but certainly representative of a significant amount of atheist to theist posting. You are not included.
"I don't really see anything other than a mocking smugness often tinged with more than a hint of bitterness."
I suppose I do not qualify as a true atheist in your mind, Because I cannot believe that I have not shown "anything but a mocking smugness often tinged with more than a hint of bitterness". But perhaps you are reacting to the extremists here, who ar ...[text shortened]... he extremists on both sides seem to get all the attention and little of the actual thought.
17 Sep 13
1 edit
Originally posted by Great King RatI may be one of the loudest contenders with the JWs (along with the likes of Proper Knob, FMF, Raik999 and a few others) but I think you will find that I rarely if ever mock them. The post you refer to is indeed meant to be a joke but it is hardly "mocking". In fact you will see that almost all of my exchanges with the JWs here are directed at their "organisation" "corporation" or "church" and despite incessant mocking and abuse from them I try very hard not to respond in kind - I am resolute in my tenaciousness with the issues relating to JW doctrine, but that is a different matter.
Though I'm mostly a reader and rarely a writer I am very interested in why people believe in god. Unfortunately, theists are very reluctant to talk about that.
Also, it oozes with irony that of all peope divegeester would be asking this question since there might be no-one here who has spent as much time mocking (yes, mocking) Jehovas Witne n I have to pick up my copy of GTA V. That's my current god. You may mock that all you want.
My contention remains that the majority of the OPs raised against theists by atheists and many of he subsequent posts in those threads are mocking in tone.