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Associated with lovers of Jesus in what way?
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Well, coming into a forum where Christian brothers are and saying "Hi, call me AntiChrist" is probably the least effective way to show you want to be associated with believers in Christ.
You might try "Hi, I'm a kind of unsatisfied believer in Christ - rather disappointed with the Christian scene. But I am a believer."
And if you are a seeking believer, why would you want to tell the world that underneath your ID you can be called AntiChrist?
What sense does that make, if you are a believer?
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWhat content do you want to discuss?
I find it funny that the Bible has declared me the antiChrist, that's all.
If I met God and was convinced he was indeed the Judeo-Christian God, I would no longer be an antiChrist - assuming Jesus was part of the true theology.
I understand. You only preach to the converted. That must be good for your ego.
There is a place where my interest ...[text shortened]... ntext". I'd love to discuss context but no one seems both willing and capable of doing so.
Kelly
Originally posted by vistesdYes - this is a needed addition to the point I was trying to make. The Pharisee goes out of his way to condemn others, to further inflate his own ego. Your dream example yields a more extreme result if the believer begrudges the unbeliever his entrance into heaven. A lot of these people are probably the same ones talking about how God desires to save souls, yet they rankle at the prospect of him doing it on his own terms.
Interesting parable. In parables such as this one, we’re seldom told what people are thinking. Presumably, their actions and words tell us what they are thinking. Or at least might be thinking: most of these parables are subject to more than one interpretation.
To tease this one just a little, I propose the following variation:
A believer has a dr ...[text shortened]... risee in the parable. And that is something that a person can only honestly answer for himself.
Originally posted by jaywillWhy don\'t you offer us a prayer of your own?
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Are you quite sure the Pharisee was standing on his own merit? He did start by thanking God, just as you did. It sounds like he is crediting God for the fact that he is a good person. [Why thank God if you\\\'re capable of doing it on your own?]
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Why don\'t you offer us a prayer of you ...[text shortened]... e one or a reaction to seeing God which you feel is helpful?[/b]
Or would you prefer to stand there beside God and help Him criticize the prayers of others?
Ahh, the old \"you think you can do better?\" defense. Fallacious, as usual. Next!
Do you think it would be more pleasing to God if I come befuddled about all these matters, confused, not too certain, doubting that He really is God incarnate.? Do you think such confusion and hesitation shows \"humility\"?
This isn\'t much like the tax collector. On the contrary, the tax collector believes God exists and has the right to judge him. But he does not assume that God will accept him, or already has accepted him. That\'s where you differ from him.
But I already had my hour of desperation as to initially being received by God.
Is that all? It\'s only supposed to last an hour? Few would claim that Christians stop sinning, even after they\'re saved. That means you\'re still a sinner, and in the same boat as the tax collector. You need God\'s mercy for the rest of your life, right?
It is not humility to be desperate about being forgiven eternally everyday ever after God has told you that you are forgiven.
Again, I bet the Pharisee also thought he was forgiven, or at least in God\'s good graces. Perhaps you will go further and claim that you are even further in God\'s good graces, because you, unlike the Pharisee, have a direct line to God.
Would you like to offer us an example of a prayer of your own then? And if not do you have one or a reaction to seeing God which you feel is helpful?
In the unlikely event that there is a God like yours, let\'s hope that he does not play by the rigid rules of his followers. Let\'s hope he does not punish people for using their intellect and following the path they believe is most likely true. Let\'s hope that he embraces not mere blind faith, but rationality.
SwissGambit,
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Ahh, the old \"you think you can do better?\" defense. Fallacious, as usual. Next!
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Would it not be a good way to illustrate your point?
Nearly everyone else was writing a response to meeting God.
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Do you think it would be more pleasing to God if I come befuddled about all these matters, confused, not too certain, doubting that He really is God incarnate.? Do you think such confusion and hesitation shows \"humility\"?
This isn\'t much like the tax collector. On the contrary, the tax collector believes God exists and has the right to judge him. But he does not assume that God will accept him, or already has accepted him. That\'s where you differ from him.
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The redeemed knows that God has the right to judge him. In fact he knows that he has been judged already. He knows that in the cross of Calvary justice was imputed upon the Son of God on behalf of the sinners.
I come to meet God knowing that I was judged on Calvary. If you do not have that assurance you will always be hounded by the accusation of Satan. Did you ever read "And they over came him [the devil] because of the blood of the Lamb ...?" (Rev.12:11)
Your attempts to morph me into the Pharisee are not doing too well. But I'm happy if you identify with the tax collector yourself.
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But I already had my hour of desperation as to initially being received by God.
Is that all? It\'s only supposed to last an hour?
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Concerning belief in eternal redemption? Why not? It is afterall not your tears which save you. It is the blood of Christ. It is not your regret that saves you. It is the blood of Christ.
It is not even TIME that saves you. It is the blood of Jesus. So one minute is enough - that is in terms of being accepted by God unto eternal redemption through believing in Jesus.
Do you think much time, much tears, much howling and rolling on the floor and much confessing saves you? Even your howling and crying and weeping have to be washed in the blood.
Remember, we are talking about the gift of forgiveness and eternal life. I am not suggesting that spiritual maturity can be instantaneously accomplished. That is a life long dealing with the heart.
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Few would claim that Christians stop sinning, even after they\'re saved.
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I think we are not talking about grow into spiritual maturity. We are talking about meeting God in the end and what our reaction might be initially.
If you to have example of effective prayers for Christian growth and maturity say after a person has been saved for many years I could have many examples.
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That means you\'re still a sinner, and in the same boat as the tax collector. You need God\'s mercy for the rest of your life, right?
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No, It means that I can still thank God when I meet Him because of this taught to Christians:
"If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving outselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:8,9)
This is spoken to disciples and not unbelieving sinners. For sweet and uninterrupted fellowship with the Father we can confess our daily sins as soon as we become aware of them. And again the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sins and keeps us in the divine fellowship in a harmonious way.
Do you think that every prayer to God can only be a repentance? That would not bear up in experience or in the Bible. It seems that you do not recognize the prayer of praise or of thanksgiving.
Anyway, there is prayer to God which may not have repentence in it as its sole subject matter.
How would you compare this prayer to that your Matthew example:
""And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty! Righteus and true are Your ways, O King of the nations!
Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; for all the nations will come and worship before You, for Your righteus judgments have been manifested." (Rev. 15:3-4)
Would you also condemn this prayer as lacking humility? Would you say that only the prayer before God consisting of weeping and trembling because of one's sense of unworthiness is the only POSSIBLE offering of prayer a human being can give?
Of course not.
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It is not humility to be desperate about being forgiven eternally everyday ever after God has told you that you are forgiven.
Again, I bet the Pharisee also thought he was forgiven, or at least in God\'s good graces. Perhaps you will go further and claim that you are even further in God\'s good graces, because you, unlike the Pharisee, have a direct line to God.
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Boy. I thought you said I was the one with it "all figured out."
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" ( 1 Cor. 6:17)
God would that everyone "joined to the Lord" would have something of a "direct line". Did you know that when you are regenerated your human spirit is joined to the Spirit of the Lord Jesus? You and He become "one spirit".
Did you ever read "Having therefore, brothers, boldness for entering the Holy of Holies in the blood of Jesus, Which entrance He initiated for us as a new and living way through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a great Priest over the house of God,
Let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from and evil conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water." (Hebrews 10:19-22)
When Christ died on the cross the great separating veil which divided the holy place from the innermost Holy of Holies, was rent from top to bottom. This signified that the separation was taken away, slain upon the cross of Jesus, allowing us sinners to approach God in the blood of Jesus.
So there is a time for humility. And there is a time to come forward to God in boldness. which boldness is because of the finished work of Christ.
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Would you like to offer us an example of a prayer of your own then? And if not do you have one or a reaction to seeing God which you feel is helpful?
In the unlikely event that there is a God like yours, let\'s hope that he does not play by the rigid rules of his followers. Let\'s hope he does not punish people for using their intellect and following the path they believe is most likely true. Let\'s hope that he embraces not mere blind faith, but rationality.
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It is perfectly rational to believe that what Christ accomplished on behalf of those who believe is effective, effectual, and trustworthy.
So is your real concern not with humility, but with finding "another" God besides the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit of the New Testament?
Why didn't you just say that in the beginning. Look, as far as eternal redmption is concerned, Righteous and innocent Jesus Christ died instead of you and I.
We can believe or search for something more intellectual. I choose to believe and give thanks to God when I meet Christ face to face.
Originally posted by jaywillYour attempts to morph me into the Pharisee are not doing too well.
SwissGambit,
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Ahh, the old \"you think you can do better?\" defense. Fallacious, as usual. Next!
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Would it not be a good way to illustrate your point?
Nearly everyone else was writing a response to meeting God.
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Do you think it would be more pleas ks to God when I meet Christ face to face.[/b]
On the contrary, very little, or no, morphing is required.
But I'm happy if you identify with the tax collector yourself.
Actually, no. I'm not desperate, nor completely humble. But I'm not the one who follows the faith that demands humility. I also think worrying over 'sin' is outdated/antiquated.
Do you think much time, much tears, much howling and rolling on the floor and much confessing saves you?
Well, it's your faith, not mine. I don't believe in God, nor salvation. However, back in my Christian days, I thought that the tax collector's attitude should persist throughout life. Not so much the theatrics - like wailing and beating himself up - but the attitude.
Do you think that every prayer to God can only be a repentance? That would not bear up in experience or in the Bible. It seems that you do not recognize the prayer of praise or of thanksgiving.
And what do attacks on 'grumbling rebels' have to do with praise or thanksgiving?
How would you compare this prayer to that [of] your Matthew example:
Easy. The Revelations prayer is all about God. The Pharisee's prayer focuses on the gratification of his own ego.
Boy. I thought you said I was the one with it "all figured out."
Am I wrong? I remind you: I'm not the one who follows a faith that demands humility. You are.
So is your real concern not with humility, but with finding "another" God besides the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit of the New Testament?
No, I'm an atheist. I'm not trying to find any gods.
Look, as far as eternal redmption is concerned, Righteous and innocent Jesus Christ died instead of you and I. We can believe or search for something more intellectual. I choose to believe and give thanks to God when I meet Christ face to face.
The problem, at least for me, is not that your faith is not intellectual enough, but that it seems illogical. I can't take something on faith unless the logical problems are resolved. If I could have resolved them, I would probably still be a Christian today.
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On the contrary, very little, or no, morphing is required.
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That's interesting. I thought your own self righteousness was beginning to loom rather large there.
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Actually, no. I'm not desperate, nor completely humble.
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Then your exhortations to me sounds like - "Don't do as I do. Do as I say do."
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But I'm not the one who follows the faith that demands humility. I also think worrying over 'sin' is outdated/antiquated.
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That seems to nullify your whole observation of where I could be corrected, don't you think?
The thing is those against whom you have commited sins may not feel your offense is out of date and antiquated. When they consider their wounds they may feel that there is still some relevancy to be reckoned with.
You may have a similiar feeling about those who injure you. And God who records all has a feeling about it. He saw the big problem and did something about it on our behalf.
Every action, word, deed ... it is all recorded. He forgets nothing good or bad. So God made provision for us in Christ.
I am simply thanking Him. That activates the power of grace in the believer's life. That is to walk by faith and not by sight.
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Well, it's your faith, not mine.
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Yes, I know. I am very fortunate indeed.
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I don't believe in God, nor salvation.
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Then we will all melt peacefully into the dust of the earth?
Are you sure?
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However, back in my Christian days, I thought that the tax collector's attitude should persist throughout life. Not so much the theatrics - like wailing and beating himself up - but the attitude.
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The attitude was good. But the parable is pre- the death of Christ. After the accomplishing of redemption, he may still feel great remorse and that is not a problem. But it is the finished work of Christ which reconciles him to God.
This exchanged started over my imagined speaking to God when I meet Him. And this is post the redemption work of Christ. So I come forward with boldness.
You see even if God doesn't like me, He HAS to receive me. It is a legal matter. Justice has been imputed already on my behalf. Since the death of Christ and my belief into it, it would be unrighteous for God to hold me accountable as pertaining to eternal life.
I can say "God whether you like me or you don't like me, you have to receive me because of the death and resurrection of Christ on my behalf."
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And what do attacks on 'grumbling rebels' have to do with praise or thanksgiving?
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If that offended you, I apologize.
But don't take it too hard. Though I have been a believer for many years the "grumbling rebel" is still somewhat alive and well in me too.
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How would you compare this prayer to that [of] your Matthew example:
Easy. The Revelations prayer is all about God. The Pharisee's prayer focuses on the gratification of his own ego.
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That is not the comparison I meant. I meant compared to the tax collector.
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Am I wrong? I remind you: I'm not the one who follows a faith that demands humility. You are.
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What God demands is Christ. That is what we can offer. That is what pleases Him. And He provide Christ that we could offer back to God the only thing with which He is satisfied.
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No, I'm an atheist. I'm not trying to find any gods.
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Yikes! Who would dare to argue with an athiest ??
So you are a "been there - done that" athiest? Okay.
Abraham backslid. Jacob backslid. Moses backslid. David backslid. Jonah backslid. Peter backslid.
The Bible gives ample time to those who can say "Been there - done that." We learn from those people also. It is not necessarily the end all.
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The problem, at least for me, is not that your faith is not intellectual enough, but that it seems illogical. I can't take something on faith unless the logical problems are resolved. If I could have resolved them, I would probably still be a Christian today.
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Well, I think we grow in faith similiar to the way we grow in the natural life.
A child finds a number of things done by an older child or adult illogical. In time they come to understand more.
I have not figured out everything. And I have some real good questions too. But certain matters seemed clear enough that I could step forward and respond to them.
One of those was that God has a plan so that Justice was imputed on my behalf on the cross of Christ. And not for me only but for the whole human race for all time. One sacrifice able to atone for the sins of the whole world.
This is my entrance into the experience of God. It is not the end in itself. But it is the entrance. And by His mercy, I entered into it.
By the way. My love for the grumbler leads me to pray for him, hold him up before God in prayers and petitions. I may be annoyed with his stubburness. But I can still love him and pray for him to receive the mercy that I also have received.
Originally posted by jaywillThat's interesting. I thought your own self righteousness was beginning to loom rather large there.
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On the contrary, very little, or no, morphing is required.
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That's interesting. I thought your own self righteousness was beginning to loom rather large there.
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Actually, no. I'm not desperate, nor completely humble.
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Th ...[text shortened]... and pray for him to receive the mercy that I also have received.[/b]
I'm sorry if you felt stung by the comparison and felt the need to lash out in kind, but I call it like I see it.
Then your exhortations to me sounds like - "Don't do as I do. Do as I say do.
Not quite. It's that book you claim to follow that says it, not me.
That seems to nullify your whole observation of where I could be corrected, don't you think?
Well, no, you've missed the point. I'm not correcting you. I'm examining your beliefs to see if they're consistent.
The thing is those against whom you have commited sins may not feel your offense is out of date and antiquated. When they consider their wounds they may feel that there is still some relevancy to be reckoned with.
Yes, I need to clarify this point. I'm not saying that one shouldn't own up to the wrong things they've done. But your faith's idea of condemning people just because they are not perfect - that's what's out of date. It destroys all sense of proportion. The teller of the white lie is just as damned as the mass murderer.
Then we will all melt peacefully into the dust of the earth?
Are you sure?
Maybe. No, but I think it highly likely.
You see even if God doesn't like me, He HAS to receive me.
This is a new one. You think the Bible is more binding that God's will?
If that offended you, I apologize.
But don't take it too hard. Though I have been a believer for many years the "grumbling rebel" is still somewhat alive and well in me too.
Another deflection from the actual point raised. Our discussion is drawing to a close.
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I'm sorry if you felt stung by the comparison and felt the need to lash out in kind, but I call it like I see it.
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Oh I was crushed. But your crocodile tears makes everything feel better.
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Not quite. It's that book you claim to follow that says it, not me.
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You might notice sometime that the book I claim to follow consists of more than one parable.
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Well, no, you've missed the point. I'm not correcting you. I'm examining your beliefs to see if they're consistent.
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You mean you're hunting for inconsistency.
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Yes, I need to clarify this point. I'm not saying that one shouldn't own up to the wrong things they've done. But your faith's idea of condemning people just because they are not perfect - that's what's out of date. It destroys all sense of proportion. The teller of the white lie is just as damned as the mass murderer.
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My understanding is that the damned are those who reject the way of salvation.
The eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels -
It is a matter of people going with their leader to co-inherit the desitiny of their leader. Whether of Christ or of Satan.
The destiny of the leader is also the destiny of the follower.
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Maybe. No, but I think it highly likely.
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Well, we do have one who went into death and came out. I think it is wise to listen to that One on the subject.
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Another deflection from the actual point raised. Our discussion is drawing to a close.
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Okay.
When I see God in my body I intend to thank Him for allowing me to live the best possible life I could have lived.
I'll have no regrets. To live by faith and in fellowship with Christ is the best possible existence I could have had.
Actually, what happens to me is secondary. That God fulfills His eternal purpose is all that really matters.
And I'll thank Him for rescueing me from the emptiness of atheism.
Originally posted by jaywillYou might notice sometime that the book I claim to follow consists of more than one parable.
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I\\\'m sorry if you felt stung by the comparison and felt the need to lash out in kind, but I call it like I see it.
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Oh I was crushed. But your crocodile tears makes everything feel better.
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Not quite. It\\\'s that book you claim to follow that says it, not me.
= nd I\\\'ll thank Him for rescueing me from the emptiness of atheism.[/b]
You might work on understanding that one parable before broadening the spectrum any further.
You mean you\\\'re hunting for inconsistency.
The funny thing is, your consistency with the Pharisee already shows your inconsistency with the biblical attitude of humility. I don\\\'t need to \\\'hunt\\\' for something that you served up for all to see.
Well, we do have one who went into death and came out. I think it is wise to listen to that One on the subject.
Well, knowing how to fake your own death and disappear for three days might come in handy someday.
And I\\\'ll thank Him for rescueing me from the emptiness of atheism.
Alternatively, if atheism is correct, it will not matter whether you think it \\\'empty\\\' or not.
If it were to be, then at first I will be hugely scared (and with reason seeing that I don't WANT to believe in any god atm). I will try to explain it and hope that god also thinks that I did it out of righteous ideas.
Now, if it were any other time, like for instance, now, so that I could change myself for him, I'd ask:
As you are almighty and just, why do you allow there to be evil in this world? (is it just for ex. that I have to suffer what Adam and Eve did, while I would NEVER have done it?)
And: as you're just, why can I only save myself by praising you and am I damned when I don't? (i.e. the first thing god apparantly looks at is if you believe/praised god in your life, not the things you did in life and even if I did everything god would want me to do except being a christian, then I still would have to burn for all eternity.)
And lastly: why are there so many different religions and do you allow that they all make war between eachother in YOUR name?
I wonder if anyone has the right answers to this and can explain themselves to me...
Originally posted by RAU4everFree will my friend....free will...
If it were to be, then at first I will be hugely scared (and with reason seeing that I don't WANT to believe in any god atm). I will try to explain it and hope that god also thinks that I did it out of righteous ideas.
Now, if it were any other time, like for instance, now, so that I could change myself for him, I'd ask:
As you are almighty and just, ...[text shortened]... me?
I wonder if anyone has the right answers to this and can explain themselves to me...