I'm appalled

Originally posted by kirksey957
How can that be bad?

i thought you were implying that it is a bad thing

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
i thought you were implying that it is a bad thing

Naw, naw. I did not see yo question mark.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Cleaerly King's message hasn't taken root everywhere. Share that wit the chillins.

I share wit the chillins that they're likely to be parents or aunts or uncles someday and it's very important what they teach by their words or actions.


...deleted to refrain from getting on my soap box. Let's just say we have a lot of discussions throughout the year...

Originally posted by kirksey957
I will list a few leaders who seem to have had a quality that was needed for their ailing country. You have already mentioned Ghandi.
Obviously Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela of SA. Corizon Aquino of the Philipines. Walensa of Poland.

All good men and good points to make. Come to think of it, can you think of any leader who adopted such peacful tactics and failed? I cannot think of any.

Originally posted by kirksey957
that here it is nearing the end of the damn day and no one has mentioned that today is Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. I guess he wasn't pure enough. I guess he didn't believe "just right" or "enough." Oh yea, he did time in jail too. I can't find any TV preachers today that did time in jail. Well, Jim Bakker, but he deserved it.

Share your thoughts about Dr. King. Why is he important today?

People rarely like my thoughts about such things, but since you asked....

MLK Jr. is important because he was the permissible public face for an ineffective strategy for achieving equality, and the fruits of that ineffectiveness is in the fact that de facto segregation in schooling, etc. is as large or larger than it was in the time of notable cases like Brown vs. Board of Education. He had enough pecadillos to make him blackmailable, if his tacit agreement couldn't be secured any other way, and he was charismatic and rhetorically gifted enough to lead the movement in a way which didn't challenge basic patriarchal, heterosexist, statist standards. For example, he publically apologized to women for having to be involved in the movement when they really should have been at home, he laughed Ella Baker out of the movement when she suggested horizontal forms of organizing, and he kicked Bayard Rustin out when he found out that he was gay.

People who actually were a threat to the system were systematically murdered, blackmailed, jailed, or otherwise 'bad-jacketed' into irrelevance, like Fred Hampton (murdered by the state), Malcolm X (possibly the same), Herman Wallace (jailed then framed for the murder of an Angola guard), etc. These are the people who will never be celebrated with official holidays, because they weren't satisfied with a few (as we now see) irrelevant gestures towards resolving America's race problem. To his credit, neither was King, Jr. but on the other hand he quickly ceased to be a person after his assassination and quickly became a symbol. Symbols don't hound women out of the movement, or kick out people because they're gay. Nor do they beat their wives (as Ghandiji did) and sit on their hands while the real center of Indian nationalism (Bhagat Singh) is murdered by the British.

So there you have it: Martin Luther King, Jr. is important because it teaches us that if you don't rock the boat, the existing hierarchy may throw a few bones in your direction and then pretend like there is no longer a race problem.

Originally posted by whodey
All good men and good points to make. Come to think of it, can you think of any leader who adopted such peacful tactics and failed? I cannot think of any.

Corazon Aquino is a woman.

And the answer is nearly all of them. Let's take, as an example, the attitude of the Jews towards the rising German totalitarian state. They failed, in that they died by the millions, along with the Roma, homosexuals, anarchists, Communists, handicapped, etc.

Martin Luther King, Jr. has clearly failed in that blacks are not regarded as equal with whites, they do not receive equal schooling, they are not equally well-housed, they are abandoned and then when they lash out with rage (as in the aftermath of the Rodney King trial), they're treated like ignorant savages. For example, one of the common refrains during that time was shock that these black people were burning down businesses in their own communities. But where were their oppressers? In the businesses in those communities. When you have a corner store that increases all its prices disproportionately in black areas because of 'shoplifting', then black families can't as easily feed their families, yes their anger is going to be directed at the corner grocery store. Or the "rent-to-own" or payday loan offices which charge exorbitant interest rates in the hope of bleeding these people dry. With a rent-to-own place, if you fall behind in your payments, it gets reposessed, and thus these places get three or four 'buyers' for the same item in inner cities. If they tried to do that selling it outright, it would be fraud, but because the fraud is perpetrated on the installment plan and with the active collaboration of the Chamber of Commerce, it's winked at by the 'justice' system. Their anger was perfectly rationally directed, but because of the "Who me?" blindness, the same racial stereotypes just discreetly inserted themselves instead. Welfare debates are another wonderful chance to see racism on display, particularly the slave-era stereotype as blacks as lazy, shiftless, and a whole host of other demeaning adjectives.

And let's not go to the disparate perceptions of black and white 'crime' such as the Hurricane Katrina black "looters" and white "finders". Or black and white suffering. Who remembers the race riot in Tulsa these days, where large sections of the black part of town were burned to the ground? Or the firebombing of a house on Osage Ave. by the FBI and Philadelphia police which burned a black neighborhood to the ground? Four students get killed at Kent State and it's remembered forever, but when two black students die in the same manner at Jackson State, it's Jack--what?

Or let's take an example from indigenous cultures. The Munsee tribe was so eager to be accepted by the colonizers that they converted to Christianity. Still, when push came to shove, their land was more important than their religion or their integration into white society, and they were slaughtered in the Gnadenhuetten Massacre. Indigenous cultures unlucky enough to be living where oil or gold is to be found in Central America are facing the same danger, and they're dying off faster when they don't fight back.

I could go on and on, since the history of pacifism is one string of failures after another, but others have done my task for me. Ward Churchill, for example, in Pacifism as Pathology or Peter Gelderloos in How Nonviolence Protects the State.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Please educate me. What is Australia and Anzac Day? I am here to learn.

Australia Day celebrates the landing of the First Fleet on January 26, 1788 at Sydney Cove. (Of course, Indigenous Australians don't celebrate as much as commiserate since it marked white colonisation of Australia.)

Anzac Day is on April 25 each year and marks the landing of Australian and New Zealand soldiers (ANZAC stands for Australian and New Zealand Army Corps - although I don't think it's celebrated in NZ) at Galipoli in Turkey during World War 1. It was a horrible defeat for the Allied forces with lots of yound Australians returning home dead or injured (including my Grandfather and his brother) - but, true to Aussie form, we celebrate the brave but horribly misguided sacrifice of our soldiers, and later military defeats and successes, on this day.

Originally posted by Nullifidian
[b]Corazon Aquino is a woman.

And the answer is nearly all of them. Let's take, as an example, the attitude of the Jews towards the rising German totalitarian state. They failed, in that they died by the millions, along with the Roma, homosexuals, anarchists, Communists, handicapped, etc.

I don't recall the Jews making much of a protest about the rising totalitarian state. There is a difference between peacefully protesting and not doing anything. I don't recommend the later. Despite this, however, the Jews now have a homeland and the Nazi regime has expired. Unfortunatly, I think that had the Holocaust not occured I would venture a guess that they would not have a homeland of their own to go to. The Jews had been persecuted for far to long in Europe up until that point, so much so that I view the Holocaust as simply a natural progression of such persecution. In the end, however, the Jews outlasted the Nazi's despite their losses so who's crying now?

Originally posted by Nullifidian
Martin Luther King, Jr. has clearly failed in that blacks are not regarded as equal with whites, they do not receive equal schooling, they are not equally well-housed, they are abandoned and then when they lash out with rage (as in the aftermath of the Rodney King trial), they're treated like ignorant savages. For example, one of the common refrains during y[/i] or Peter Gelderloos in How Nonviolence Protects the State.[/b]

I can hardly believe what I am hearing. You are saying that Dr. King was a failure? What a pompous thing to say, especially for someone who has a national holiday given to them to remember them and saying it on their day of remeberance. I don't see any Nullifidian day of rememberance. What does that make you in comparison? You sir should be ashamed.

I would say that Dr. King was just as much a failure as Abraham Lincoln was a failure when he released the slaves and gave them their freedom. I would say that Dr. King is just as much a failure as Frederick Douglas was who laid the ground work for the civil rights movement that gave blacks the rights they have today. I would say that Dr. King was just as much a failure as the underground railroad in saving the lives of fleeing slaves. I would say that Dr. King was just as much of a failure as Jackie Robinson was a failure for being the first black professional baseball player in history and enduring death threats and continuous taunting without retaliating and, in turn, laying the ground work for Black professional athletes who came after him. I suppose your definition of a success is nothing short of the Messiah returning and putting an end to all sin as we know it?

I don't deny that there remains some serious problems in regards to African Americans and discrimination. However, there is a difference between being greatful for the progress that has been made and continuing to build upon those foundations verses defecating on the tombs of men and women who have valiently and bravely made progress despite their historic and current plight. Its all about your attitude man.

Originally posted by whodey
I can hardly believe what I am hearing. You are saying that Dr. King was a failure? What a pompous thing to say, especially for someone who has a national holiday given to them to remember them and saying it on their day of remeberance. I don't see any Nullifidian day of rememberance. What does that make you in comparison? You sir should be ashamed.

...[text shortened]... women who have valiently and bravely made progress despite their historic and current plight.

well his goal was to stop discrimination and to have blacks equal to whites, which neither is the case today. i wouldnt say he failed, but i wouldnt say he succeeded, i think he contributed.

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
well his goal was to stop discrimination and to have blacks equal to whites, which neither is the case today. i wouldnt say he failed, but i wouldnt say he succeeded, i think he contributed.

Who here thinks that discrimination will ever cease to exist as we know it? If there are any hear I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

Of coarse that was his goal but do you really think he actually thought he could erradicate ALL discrimination. Thats like saying I wish to erradicate all lying in the world. To be honest, I think he would be ecstatic to see the progress that has been made and for just for not getting death threats and people ending up killing him for protesting racial injustice. Do you or does any one hear not see the progress that has been made? It is clear to me that the man saw that he would more than likely be killed. In his speech, "I have a dream" he says that I may not get there with ya. I think he knew that his time was short and he gave his life for the progress that has been made. Do you really think a similar movement today would incur such wrath as was incurred by Dr. King?

Originally posted by whodey
Who here thinks that discrimination will ever cease to exist as we know it? If there are any hear I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

Of coarse that was his goal but do you really think he actually thought he could erradicate ALL discrimination. Thats like saying I wish to erradicate all lying in the world. To be honest, I think he would be ecst you really think a similar movement today would incur such wrath as was incurred by Dr. King?

yeah he did a good job. youre right it has gotten a LOT better, but racism is getting worse again, especially amongst the kids. at lunch in school, the hispanics sit together, the whites sit together, the blacks sit together, and some sit everywhere. when i sit with mexicans a lot of the words i hear out of their mouth is "stupid white girl" or "stupid white boy", and same with blacks, then when i sit with white people they say the "n" word as if it were a bad thing, and "wetback", etc. i know that doesnt cover all the races but at my school it is the majority. racism is getting bad again. so how long will Dr. King's contribution to racism last? it will probably be forgotten soon

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
yeah he did a good job. youre right it has gotten a LOT better, but racism is getting worse again, especially amongst the kids. at lunch in school, the hispanics sit together, the whites sit together, the blacks sit together, and some sit everywhere. when i sit with mexicans a lot of the words i hear out of their mouth is "stupid white girl" or "stupid snt cover all the races but at my school it is the majority. racism is getting bad again

But is this Dr. Kings fault? I say if you want to know who's fault it is look in the mirror. You see we will never arrive in a perfect utopia, rather, it is and always will be a constant struggle for reform. That is the mind set that is needed otherwise you are right, it will continue to get worse.

Just as a side note, it does trouble me, however, not to see such a man as Dr. King in the Black community today as someone to look up to. I think it is needed. Instead we only have men like the one who initiated the million man march. What was his name? Farakan perhaps? What a joke he is. He is the type of person who does nothing more than spread reverse discrimination by calling whites white devils.

Originally posted by whodey
But is this Dr. Kings fault? I say if you want to know who's fault it is look in the mirror. You see we will never arrive in a perfect utopia, rather, it is and always will be a constant struggle for reform. That is the mind set that is needed.

of course its not his fault, im just saying he didnt necessarily succeed; he changed the world but only temporarily

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
of course its not his fault, im just saying he didnt necessarily succeed; he changed the world but only temporarily

But the world is continuously changing and Dr. King has long been dead. So what are we doing today about changing the world for the better like Dr. King did?