Immoral thoughts?

Originally posted by Suzianne
That is why we all need a Savior, whose innocence enabled him to be our intermediary and to take on the sins of the world in our place and enable us to enter the Kingdom of God.

I don't see why a morally sound person would want another person to take responsibility for, or absolve them of, the guilt or consequences stemming from their immoral deeds. And this abdication of moral responsibility allows one ~ or makes one eligible ~ to be rewarded for eternity? In terms of mythology/superstition, it sounds completely far-fetched, and in terms of morality, it doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by FMF
"Sins" aside ~ by which I mean acts that are regarded by theologians and religious people as transgressions of God's will ~ the notion of "immoral thoughts" is a misnomer. "Morality" is a code that governs human interaction ~ and thoughts that do not lead to immoral deeds cannot be deemed as being immoral. Your take on this?

This I think, is a question on wether certain thoughts can be considered immoral or sinful, and if the latter, then whether or not these sinful thoughts can be considered immoral thoughts.

Jesus said that if a man even looks lustfully at a (another) woman, then he has committed adultery with her in his heart. So from a Christian biblical perceptive this example is pretty clear that thinking adulterous thoughts is as sinful as committing adultery itself. However, it is my belief that Jesus was making a couple of points:

- Firstly that mankind is fundamentally flawed and that even his/her thoughts are flawed.

- Secondly that what is within us inevitably impacts what comes out of us. I think there have been secular psycho/behavioural research which indicate that our thoughts effect our behaviour.

Wether or not an "immoral" thought such as the above example of adultery (accepting that some don't think adultery is immoral) does lead to an immoral act is probably unknown, but biblically and in terms of sin, Jesus indicates that they are the same.

I understand the spiritual implications here, but struggle with the practical element of rationalising that to everyday life.

Originally posted by divegeester
This I think, is a question on wether certain thoughts can be considered immoral or sinful, and if the latter, then whether or not these sinful thoughts can be considered immoral thoughts.

Jesus said that if a man even looks lustfully at a (another) woman, then he has committed adultery with her in his heart. So from a Christian biblical perceptive ...[text shortened]... plications here, but struggle with the practical element of rationalising that to everyday life.

The OP, with its "Sins aside..." opener sought to set "sin" aside in this particular thread as "sin" gets discussed a lot. I am all for religious people discussing "sin" and even conflating it with "morality" if they choose, but with this thread I was interested in thoughts not based on the conflation of the two.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Could you be even a little more specific? This question is so vague as to have any number of answers.

josephw asked "If the deed is immoral why not the thought?". Someone who's never been tempted has never been tested. What matters is what we do not what we think. Provided they never become external there's not a problem.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I think, as humans, we have more control of our actions then we do our thoughts.

If i tell you 'don't think about tomatoes', chances are you will think about tomatoes. If i tell not to poke the cat with a stick, you will hopefully be more able to prevent yourself from doing so.

I have a client who feels constantly guilty for the dark thoughts ...[text shortened]... by a thought; but not every thought leads to a deed. If it did, we would all be in trouble. ;o)

I agree that our thoughts can come at random. Unbidden thoughts. Oddly enough though I cannot find where it says we will be judged, by the God of the Bible, for our thoughts, except perhaps where Jesus said that if we look upon a woman with lust we have committed adultery in our heart. Thoughts matter.

I think we are not exempt from accountability for our thoughts even though we may not act upon them. I think right living begins with right thinking. No one is perfect. Or else why do we need a saviour?

Anything can be forgiven! Even our stray thoughts that lead us away from the righteousness of God.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Who is braver, the one who dashes in recklessly or the one who fears but acts in spite of their fear?

Please explain how that is relevant.

What has bravery to do with the topic?

Originally posted by josephw
Please explain how that is relevant.

What has bravery to do with the topic?

See three posts above. Thinking pure thoughts isn't what makes one moral, it's not acting on the bad ones that counts.

Originally posted by josephw
I agree that our thoughts can come at random. Unbidden thoughts. .

So you must surely agree that having such "unbidden" thoughts
cannot be considered immoral - regardless of how depraved those thoughts might be.
?

Originally posted by divegeester
So from a Christian biblical perceptive this example is pretty clear that thinking adulterous thoughts is as sinful as committing adultery itself.

Maybe "thinking" is too broad a word here?

Maybe Jesus was talking about "planning"?
That thought process we go through before acting?

I can understand that counselling people not to "deliberately"
think immoral thoughts a good idea. In fact I have discussed
with friends the concept of making possibilities - (I contend that
one has to make adultery a possibility before it happens.)

However - day-dreaming/fantasising about sex with the neighbour
is surely different. Do not we all fantasise about things we could not,
would not ever do?

Originally posted by FMF
Well I've laid out my argument in the OP ~ and thus answered your two questions above ~ so feel free to argue the opposite if you want.

""Sins" aside ~ by which I mean acts that are regarded by theologians and religious people as transgressions of God's will ~ the notion of "immoral thoughts" is a misnomer."

What a convoluted statement! How do you jump from "acts" of "sins" to the "notion" that "immoral thoughts" are a misnomer? The whole statement is irrational. You cannot separate any "act" from its precedent "thought", and thoughts that involve a corresponding act regarded as immoral are in and of themselves immoral, regardless of what any so-called theologian or religious person may say about what is or isn't a sinful act.


""Morality" is a code that governs human interaction ~ and thoughts that do not lead to immoral deeds cannot be deemed as being immoral. Your take on this?"

"Thoughts that do not lead to immoral deeds cannot be deemed as being immoral"? That's just a no-brainer! We have thousands of thoughts everyday about the things we do that have nothing to do with moral conduct whatsoever! What are you trying to pull over our eyes with this line of convoluted and irrational nonsense?

Your OP answered nothing.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
So you must surely agree that having such "unbidden" thoughts
cannot be considered immoral - regardless of how depraved those thoughts might be.
?

A thought that has as it's object an act that is defined as immoral, whether bidden or not, remains an "immoral thought".

No mortal is immune to them. All are guilty. Except Jesus.

Originally posted by DeepThought
See three posts above. Thinking pure thoughts isn't what makes one moral, it's not acting on the bad ones that counts.

I agree that when one acts upon an immoral thought is when one is guilty of an immoral act, but then the question arises, are we moral when our thoughts are not?

How can we separate out our thought life from our whole being?

Originally posted by josephw

You cannot separate any "act" from its precedent "thought", and thoughts that involve a corresponding act regarded as immoral are in and of themselves immoral, regardless of what any so-called theologian or religious person may say about what is or isn't a sinful act.

Well, the OP is explicitly not talking about "sin". If a thought about an immoral act does not damage anyone, does not deceive anyone, and does not coerce anyone ~ in other words, it does not have an adverse impact on anyone else, the kind of impacts morality serves to prevent ~ how can it be deemed to be immoral?

Originally posted by josephw

We have thousands of thoughts everyday about the things we do that have nothing to do with moral conduct whatsoever! What are you trying to pull over our eyes with this line of convoluted and irrational nonsense?

The notion of "sin" aside, morality is surely a code that governs the acceptability and unacceptability of interactions between people ~ in other words deeds and conduct. That we have thousands of thoughts everyday about the things that have nothing whatsoever to do with moral conduct is not in dispute; I'm not sure what makes you think it is.

Originally posted by josephw
How can we separate out our thought life from our whole being?

When it comes to "thought life", surely one separation that can be made is between thoughts that result in actions, and thoughts that do not?