Originally posted by jaywillOh ok. So this is symbolic but Jesus ruling from it is not? And where again where he rule from?
I looked over my answer once again.
Where does the river flow? You asked that and maybe I was not clear.
It flows into the whole city. The city is symbolic. So the sign of the river flowing down the mountain in the middle of the street is a revelation of God despensing Himself into the entire body of His sons.
No, I do not believe a 1500 hundre ...[text shortened]... nal field.
I believe we are seeing in Rev. 21,22 a SIGN of a profound reality - symbolism.
Originally posted by menace71Of course Jesus returns to the earth physically !
So G75 what is this talking about? Why did these men in white even bother saying that this Jesus whom you've seen will return in the same way? Were they lying?
The Ascension Act 1:9-11
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10And as they were gazing intently ...[text shortened]... nto heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
Manny
These JWs make a huge deal of the 144,000 in Revelation 14. Nothing as far as I can see speaks of their reigning.
The purpose of the vision, I feel, is not to indicate where they are in terms of reigning but who they are in terms of being the satisfaction of the Father.
The type of the firstfuits in Leviticus was brought into the temple and consecrated to God. These human firstfruits signify the early overcomers brought to the Father in heaven for His satisfaction.
Now FIRST - in firstfruits emphazies TIME. They ripen first. In the same chapter latter you have HARVEST.
Here's the meaning. There are those who mature FIRST - a minority. And then there are those who ripen latter- the majority the HARVEST.
Okat, Firstfruits = early. Harvest = latter. That is chapter 14 in a nutshell. Except between Firstfruits and Harvest is a general discription of the terrible persecution of the Antichrist. Am I right.
So here you have it. Firstfruits who matured EARLY, followed by terrible persecution of the great tribulation, followed by HARVEST, followed by Grapes of Wrath.
The main point I stress is that some believers, a minority, will be alive and ready to be raptured. They will be taken before the tribulation for the Father's satisfaction. Then the terrible great tribulation occurs. The majority of immature Christians pass through that heated time and mature under that kind of persecution.
So the great tribulation is a tool used by God to also ripen His crop that should have been ready but needed more time.
Put another way - the Firstfruits became mature without the NEED for the great tribulation. That is a real satisfaction to God. Since God cares about His entire crop, the HARVEST, the majority of His children pass through that time. It will cause them to grow and ripen in the divine life.
So the Harvest follows latter after the FIRST-fruits.
There are also the gleanings. But that is in chapter 16.
Gleanings are those who are raptured even after the Harvest was raptured. This is all according to typology provided in the Old Testament.
JWs make a huge deal out of the 144,000 Firstfruits. They say they are ruling from Heaven during the millennium.
I suppose the fact that they are on Mt. Zion leads them to say things about their governmental function.
Actually, the vision of these Firstfruits stresses that they are an enjoyment to the Father for the Father's satisfaction. That is what the firstfruits of the harvest were to God in the Old Testament.
Someone will have to provide me some solid proof that they remain in Heaven during the millennium. Where do the JWs get that idea.
The overcoming believers who are victorious in their walk and faith are ever WITH Christ. If Christ is reigning on the earth then His rewarded overcomers should be there WITH Him.
During the millennium there is no hint that Jesus the Son of God remains in heaven. His feet are on the earth. And His throne of glory is in Jerusalem. There is no word I can find suggesting He leaves some believers in Heaven during that time.
Let Galvaston provide such proof. In Revelation 19 the army accompanying Jesus comes WITH Jesus to the earth. Where is the hint that some are left behind up in heaven ?
The kingdom of the heavens in the book of Matthew does not mean the kingdom that is only IN heaven. It means the kingdom whose SOURCE and ORIGIN is from Heaven.
It means "the heavens rule". It is does not mean the kingdom relegated to Heaven.
Proof - Matthew 13:41. The Son of Man will send His angels to gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all that offend and cause stumbling.
Now if the kingdom of the Heavens is only in heaven that means that Jesus would send His angels TO Heaven to gather out of His kingdom the rebellious human sinners and transgressors who cause stumbling. That would mean that Jesus would have to have taken them, the unsaved, TO Heaven in the first place.
You see that it makes no sense.
I do not know why the Jehovah's Witnesses think some humans will be in Heaven and not on earth reigning with Christ over the earth.
I would only say that such co-kings are heavenly people in disposition and character. The kingdom of the heaven is the kingdom that the disciples say "Thy kingdom COME". They do not pray "Thy Kingdom GO".
Originally posted by galveston75In the earthly city JERUSALEM Jesus Christ will sit there as in the capital of the whole earth. He will reign over the earth from Israel in and in the city of Jerusalem.
Oh ok. So this is symbolic but Jesus ruling from it is not? And where again where he rule from?
He will shepherd the nations as with an iron rod. His overcomers who are rewarded to reign with Him will be over 10, 5, 1, or how many other cities over the earth ruling for Him.
They too will shepherd the nations with a strong rod of iron - symbolism for strong ruling power.
Compare Revelation 2:26 with 12:5 with 19:15
The bottom line - Christ and a remnant of overcoming believers will together reign in the millennium over the nations, sherpherding them with strong ruling power.
Originally posted by galveston75Now that time maybe I didn't read your question carefully.
Oh ok. So this is symbolic but Jesus ruling from it is not? And where again where he rule from?
But I am going to be timed out any second.
Let me put it this way. From one side He is a strong physcial ruler over the earth. That is forever.
From another angle He is the INWARD ruler within those who have received the life and nature of God dispensed into them.
Why can't you see that both are true ?
Why can't you see that Christ is Divine LIFE (ZOE) and Christ is the King as well ?
I may have a few seconds left.
God is planted INTO man to grow.
This growth takes time. The outcome of this growth is the mingling of God and man.
I SAID THE MINGLING OF GOD AND MAN.
Some arrive early - FIRST - FRUITS.
Some arrive latter with the help of the intense heat of the great tribulation - HARVEST.
All who receive the Spirit of Jesus must arrive at this mingling. We may refuse to receive Jesus. That will lead to damnation. We can receive Him and slow down the growth. That will only serve to postpone and prolong the inevitable. We can cooperate and die to self and allow Christ to grow within.
Paul says he planted. Apollos watered. But GOD caused to Grow. God is growing a crop of God men.
God is growing a crop of men and women mingled with God.
Also where is Christ at the end of the 1000 years? On the earth. The Dragon was loosed one last time to try and deceive those who dwell on the earth. The city were Christ is reining. It clearly says the 144,000 our a first fruits which I fully agree with J on this if they are first then more are coming.
Manny
One thing I cannot figure out is how long is the "a little while" that Satan is loosed from his prison after the 1,000 years.
You know to God "a little while" could be considerable.
Anyway, though Antichrist and the false prophet have no more use to God, apparently Satan is still useful to test some of the humans on the earth after the millennium.
Then the snake goes to the lake! Halellujah for that.
The 144,000 Firstfruits are seen in Heaven. This "Mt. Zion" must be something in Heaven. The sound of their singing is from Heaven. So they must have been raptured there.
" And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters ..." (14:2)
But why does the Bible not discribe them being TAKEN up there? How they got there is not recorded but only that they are there.
Often how the Bible does not say something is as important as how it says something. I believe the lesson is that within their hearts they already were in heaven.
I mean that they lived physically on earth but their love, their aspirations, their motives were all involved with heaven. They lived in the kingdom of the heavens.
They have just been physically transported to where their heart was already. Here is what I think should be noticed. Rapture should not be a shock. It should just be the event of God taking the Christians physically to where their inward being already is.
The 144,000 Firstfruits represent people who are living on the earth around the end times who will be raptured to heaven early. That is early in terms of when the majority of Christians are raptured.
I do not know if 144,000 is meant simply as a spiritual number to indicate:
1.) A limited minority.
2.) A qualitative perfection (12 times 12) times 1000.
In Revelation the number 12 is another combination of the numbers 3 and 4 which equal 7.
Seven (3 + 4) represents a adding of the Triune God with His creature.
But Twelve (3 times 4) is a mingling.
A mingling is a more intimate involvement of God and man. In 7 as 3 + 4 we see God bringing man to Himself. We also see in 7 we also see the unique God (1) bringing His creation (6) to Himself, 1 + 6.
In 12 we see 3 multiplied by 4. That is as 3 gates on each of the 4 sides of the city. This may indicate mingling of God and man.
The 144,000 is a mingling of 1,000 fold. There will be a remnant and minority of matured believers alive on earth towards the end of the age. Like Enoch they simply will one day just not be found. Where their hearts are their physical bodies will be suddenly taken, to the highest heavens.
Originally posted by jaywillWhat are you trying to say here???????
The 144,000 Firstfruits are seen in Heaven. This "Mt. Zion" must be something in Heaven. The sound of their singing is from Heaven. So they must have been raptured there.
[b]" And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters ..." (14:2)
But why does the Bible not discribe them being TAKEN up there? How they got there is not rec ...[text shortened]... Where their hearts are their physical bodies will be suddenly taken, to the highest heavens.[/b]
Originally posted by menace71You just need to be able to distinguish between what is real and what is a parable or illustration, then things like this will be clear to you.
G75 a good question if flesh can not enter heaven then what happened to Enoch? Also Elijah too!!
Manny
The Bible does not contradict itself and it says flesh cannot go to heaven. So the scripture your referring to cannot mean they went to heaven in the flesh.