27 Jun 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadMy definition of the universe included those parts of the universe,
But your definition of the universe seemed to include all time. Did I misunderstand your definition? Clearly the definition of a human life does not include all time, so it doesn't really work as an analogy.
as human body parts make up the body. In other words from the
point of time the universe started it's time started; however, that does
not mean that 'all time' has to do with this universe. Even if I took your
beliefs about another dimension spilling/bleeding/pouring/big banging
so that this one is created/formed the argument would remain the
passage of time from that other dimension or in it would have a point
of before ours started, during the time ours started, up till now. The
human body has parts, you have a brain in yours, that doesn’t mean
all brains are yours.
Kelly
27 Jun 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadThat is a good way of looking at it, you can claim all time that matters
Sorry, I still don't understand you. Are you saying that 'all time' is a subset of eternal, or 'all time' is equivalent to eternal, or eternal means something altogether different?
is that in which we are part of, or that which the earth is a part of, or
that which our kids are a part of, or that which the sun is part of, or
that which the universe is a part of, or that which is all time for all
that there is every where across all boundries of every sort. If I limit
my focus/belief to all time is just which is a part of an event no matter
how large if it has boundries and those boundries don't take into
account everything else, I'm only speaking of a sub set of time.
Kelly
27 Jun 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadLook we don't know everything there is about the universe we take our
But how do you know whether the universe is an apple or an orange? When making your claim that everything must have a cause and other similar claims that you have applied to the universe, you did not state that it is a universe specific claim, nor did you explain why it applies to the universe but not other entities such as God. You instead argued them as if they were self evidently applicable to anything.
knowledge as far as we can, right now we suspect/believe (what ever)
that our universe has a beginning and some believe it is going to have
an end as well. We (those who do) who believe in God (the specific God
of the Bible) have beliefs about Him too, and they are different than
the ones we have about the universe, He has no beginning, He has no
end, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Those are two
completely different beliefs about two different things.
Kelly
27 Jun 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadI'm claiming our universe cannot come from nothing, which is the long
No, I am not taking any specific standpoint. Your definition implies the impossibility or illogicality of claiming a 'before' the universe. That leads to the conclusion that either time has no beginning, or your rule about there always being a before is incorrect.
You must either change your definition, or admit that your argument violates your definition.
and short of my discussion. Any jumping through hoops after that is
to say where it could come from, and those reasons why we believe
what we do. I know some say we use God to fill in the blanks where
our knowledge fails us, but we tend to do that with other dimensions
and other things too! That is not a reason to dismiss God as a cause
because it is possible He is someone's crutch, when there is also a
chance that God is real and did do what was written about Him and the
other dimensions are a fill in the blank crutch.
Kelly
27 Jun 09
2 edits
Originally posted by karoly aczelAnything that logically contradicts itself cannot exist because for such a thing to exist would be a contradiction. Logically, you cannot have both ‘P’ and ‘not P’ in reality.
Simply. The universe is a paradox.
(I'm sure Fabian knows this)
Therefore, if the universe is a contradiction, then it doesn’t exist. But it does exist, therefore it is not a contradiction.
…oh hang on; you were joking, right?