09 Apr 22
@moonbus saidI think you are confused.
Maybe we should start with 0.05% of what you believe in that actually makes sense to me, and leave off the rest (talking snakes and guilt and redemption).
If you love God, yourself, your neighbor, and even your enemies and tormentors, then you will live sub specie aeternitatis, you will be living in a sense timelessly, everything will appear to you under the aspect ...[text shortened]... I say, and start familiarizing yourselves with the territory (for Christ's sake, if not your own!).
To begin with, how would you know if anyone here is paying lip service to their love for God or our fellowman?
I don't claim Jesus attained any state but came in as God in the flesh, so He is the truth, not me. I can only point someone to Him, and I'm not the holder of truth, simply sharing; the truth doesn't start with me. It starts and ends with Christ.
Jesus tells us we need Him, not just here are some rules to live by outside of loving God and each other, which is done by doing what we know to do obeying what God has said, doing good works, caring for the needs of others—forgiving as we have been forgiven.
God, who transcends the universe, created it, then supernatural events are not out of the question, just not the norm.
Truth is Jesus Christ, the Word of God, by whom all creation was made. If there is to be familiarization, it should be to get to know Him while He can be found.
09 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidI could not get myself to believe even 1% of the things you believe.
I think you are confused.
To begin with, how would you know if anyone here is paying lip service to their love for God or our fellowman?
I don't claim Jesus attained any state but came in as God in the flesh, so He is the truth, not me. I can only point someone to Him, and I'm not the holder of truth, simply sharing; the truth doesn't start with me. It starts and ends ...[text shortened]... was made. If there is to be familiarization, it should be to get to know Him while He can be found.
09 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidNothing, out of hand. Only upon long reflection, examining arguments, examining documents, examining evidence, encounters with those who claim to possess the salvational gnosis, and results.
What do you think I believe that you reject it out of hand?
09 Apr 22
@moonbus saidNothing specific, just whatever it is; I believe you reject 99% because you reflected?
Nothing, out of hand. Only upon long reflection, examining arguments, examining documents, examining evidence, encounters with those who claim to possess the salvational gnosis, and results.
09 Apr 22
@kellyjay said.. and examined arguments, read the Bible and other documents, considered evidence; I have had encounters and long discussions with those who claim to possess the salvational gnosis, and I see the results. These lead me to reject 99% of what Christians claim for themselves.
Nothing specific, just whatever it is; I believe you reject 99% because you reflected?
09 Apr 22
@moonbus saidThat is different, rejecting 99% of me personally; it is 99% of Christian doctrine? If you cannot accept the beginning, everything that follows goes out the window without even consideration.
.. and examined arguments, read the Bible and other documents, considered evidence; I have had encounters and long discussions with those who claim to possess the salvational gnosis, and I see the results. These lead me to reject 99% of what Christians claim for themselves.
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10 Apr 22
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Maybe we should start with 0.05% of what you believe in that actually makes sense to me, and leave off the rest (talking snakes and guilt and redemption).
I take this to imply your conscience is aware of no offense you could possibly have against either yourself, or another person, or God. By "leaving off" guilt, do you mean you have never known any concerning things you have done?
I think you have known true guilt, not exaggerated and not excessive, but genuine proportionally realistic conviction in your own conscience concerning something you knew you ought not have done.
Again, I do not mean an overly sensative conscience. But a realistic conviction of having wished you had not done something that you did do.
If you love God, yourself, your neighbor, and even your enemies and tormentors, then you will live sub specie aeternitatis, you will be living in a sense timelessly, everything will appear to you under the aspect of eternity; you will not fear death, and you will be in a position to forgive everyone and everything.
I think this is some kind of caricature or misunderstanding of my Christian
thoughts.
It sounds like you don't believe that Jesus Christ represented a normal human being or essentially what God had in mind when He thought of "man".
But you would have to explain more your usage of sub specie aeternitatis there, which I found literally means "under the aspect of eternity."
It sounds like you are saying an eternalized perfect humanity in Christ and in some untold number of saved sinners is not believable.
I think I am getting close to what you're objecting to.
If so my initial response is:
1.) the resurrection of Jesus stands as a divinely attested to evidence that God was pleased with Him to the utternost.
2.) What He taught therefore I have to take seriously. I have to understand what He teaches closely. Misunderstanding Him, maybe a problem. I don't want to twist it.
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10 Apr 22
This will produce a state of total acceptance and peace. This much I can understand and even agree with, theoretically.
I think I cannot pretend Jesus didn't live.
I think no one was able to imagine such a Person and fictitiously put those words into His mouth and deeds attributed to Him that easily. Nor do I think anyone WOULD want to do so even if they were capabable of creating such a story.
And His resurrection from the dead stands as God's (not man's) vidication of His truthfulness. OTherwise Jesus could only die for Himself and His own sins.
His being raised seals His vindication that God accepts His death for the world.
And if God accepts His act then His words and teachings must also be true.
Included in those teachings is that HE can be EVERYTHING for us that we need.
That is everything, whatever is needed by God.
He is truly the Savior furnishing for and to those who believe into Him
everything needed for eternity. I harmony, juticce, peace, righteousness, glory . . . He is everything the saved need.
That Jesus (or someone named something similar, Jeshua or whatever) attained this state in the ME about 2,000 years ago, in fact, I am willing to accept as possible, perhaps even probable.
You're closer to what I accept then than I thought.
Sometimes a man thinks he is a million miles from the Father when he is only a
little way off from receiving God into his heart.
You can be far away from religion yet not so far from the living God.
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10 Apr 22
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However, I see two problems with this, practically.
1. Jesus presents us with a clear image of what it looks like to be in this state, but did not leave us any clear technique how to reach this state in practise.
The technique is HIMSELF. Since He is alive and available and experiencible He says HE HIMSELF is the way.
"Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." (JOhn 14:6)
The method is a living Person.
The technique is found in oneness with an available living Jesus.
As we receive Him in and by faith, we learn to walk in Him by faith. Step by step in the enjoyment of His life being supernaturally compunded into our own.
This is the "technique" the apostles themselves employed and left for us as example. We have to join ourselves to the SAME availiable resurrected and living Christ. We can enjoy what they enjoyed.
The "way" is Jesus HIsmelf . . . "I am the way and the truth and the life"
Buddha did. The technique is tried and tested and it works.
This man died and stayed dead though.
Jesus rose and became a life giving Spirit.
We can receive the technique, the way, the road to the Father in receiving Jesus the available divine life giving Spirit as He sits somewhere transendent in Heaven as the soon coming Lord of all.
2. The people who took up Jesus's example and teachings also did not pass on to us any clear path or technique for duplicating this state in others (as Buddha's followers did). What the followers of Jesus made of it was a dogma, loaded with all sorts of stuff (about talking snakes and guilt and redemption) which actually hinders people from attaining this state themselves. I do not know of any Christian who does actually love God, himself, and his neighbors, much less his enemies and tormentors. They pay this endless lip service, and they rant on and on and on about how imperfect and sinful everyone is and about how THEY have TRUTH (e.g., KellyJay). Pfui. Truth is only the map, not the territory. He who is familiar with the territory has no need of a map. Dump the dogma, I say, and start familiarizing yourselves with the territory (for Christ's sake, if not your own!).
What you speak is not my experience at all.
Early in my Christian walk I prayed and asked God to lead me to Christian who would encourage my faith and not discourage it. He answered that prayer.
I know thousands of Christian brothers and sisters who have been changed more and more to live Christ, live out Christ, and let Christ live in them.
Somerhow I didn't hunt for examples to discourage me. I went quickly on to seek those who are inheriting the promises to learn from them and benifit from thier going somewhat before.
What you say sounds a bit like "I WOULD be interested in chess. But there are no really good chess players out there. So I said, Eh, what's the use? I mean nobody knows how to play well."
I would not be being honest with myself if I said I have never known any followers of Christ who encouraged me. There have been MANY whose lives persuaded me that I was on the right track to give my heart over to this Lord Jesus.
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10 Apr 22
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If you love God, yourself, your neighbor, and even your enemies and tormentors,
But there are instances of Jesus teaching that His people will at some time pray for the vindication pf God against their advasaries.
Luke 18:1-8 is a parable about the suffering widow beseeching a judged to finally take up her case of being persecuted.
"And will not God by all means carry out the avenging of His chosen, who cry to Him day and night, though He is long-suffering over them? I tell you that He will carry out their avenging quickly. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:7-8)
Also towards the end of the age John got a glimpse of martyred believers in paradise in Hades asking God how long He will tolerate thier being murdered by unbelievers.
"And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will you not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? " (Rev. 6:9-10)
Don't think that there will never be a time when strong prayers will ascend to the throne of God for vengeance to be taken upon those who murdered Christians for their faith.
So when I read I take in "love your enemies and prayer for those who persecute you" along with indications that prayers for vengeance from the righteous Judge will be inspired and heard and answered.
10 Apr 22
@sonship saidIt's interesting how often you cite the consolation of faith [people feeling "changed" and "encouraged"] as somehow being evidence of a supernatural phenomenon [a dead man being "alive"].
I know thousands of Christian brothers and sisters who have been changed more and more to live Christ, live out Christ, and let Christ live in them.
10 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidDon't take it personally. I reject 99% of what Christians in general believe.
That is different, rejecting 99% of me personally; it is 99% of Christian doctrine? If you cannot accept the beginning, everything that follows goes out the window without even consideration.
10 Apr 22
@sonship
1.) the resurrection of Jesus stands as a divinely attested to evidence that God was pleased with Him to the utternost.
Let's start with this.
There is no evidence that this really happened. No one ever came back from the dead, certainly not after three days. And we're not talking about falling into a coma here and walking up later; we're talking about being executed and coming back three days later. Did not happen.
The accounts of it in the Gospels were not written by people who had actually known Jesus. They were written a generation later by people who weren't there. And in any case, accounts are not evidence; accounts are stories in need of evidence.
I do not believe this really happened. There was no bodily resurrection. It was made up, redacted into the accounts of Jesus's life to give his teachings a weight and poignancy they would not otherwise have enjoyed.
You can figure out for yourself how much of the rest of Christian doctrine makes no sense, if you leave off the resurrection.
10 Apr 22
@sonship saidThat simply means that God is not bound by the morality He demands his subjects to adhere to.If you love God, yourself, your neighbor, and even your enemies and tormentors,
But there are instances of Jesus teaching that His people will at some time pray for the vindication pf God against their advasaries.
Luke 18:1-8 is a parable about the suffering widow beseeching a judged to finally take up her case of being persecuted.
[b] ...[text shortened]... cations that prayers for vengeance from the righteous Judge will be inspired and heard and answered.