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23 May 05
Originally posted by telerionI think it would be better to say that you feel or think that God is real, and I do not. That is fair.
I think it would be better to say that you feel or think that God is real, and I do not. That is fair.
As far as the questions go, you've just chosen not to answer them. You clearly believe in a reality (since you just said that God is real). Given that, then the following questions are appropriate:
Let reality be the set of all that is real. If so is God the creator of this reality? Is God a subset of this creation?
God is not real in a human sense of the word. You cannot touch Him with your hands or see him with your eyes as you would see another human being. He is not human. In the sense that He is God, the unseen, he is still a reality in his own sense of the word. You cannot equate the reality of God with the reality of man. You need faith to experience the reality of God. You need faith to know that God is a reality. You also have to believe that God exists before you can know that he is a reality. Unlike Muffy, who is not a reality, you cannot believe and not believe in God as you can with Muffy.
23 May 05
1 edit
God is not real in a human sense of the word.
Thank you for clearing this up. I take it then when a non-believer asks you if God is real, you reply "No."
You cannot touch Him with your hands or see him with your eyes as you would see another human being. He is not human.
I hope that this is not what you believe others restrict "reality" to.
In the sense that He is God, the unseen, he is still a reality in his own sense of the word.
Like ultraviolet light right? 🙂
If he is real in any sense, then he is a member of the set of everything that is real. If he is also the creator of this set, then he is the creator of himself.
You cannot equate the reality of God with the reality of man.
This appears to be yet another example of a xtian pulling stuff out of nowhere to redefine God in an attempt to escape logical difficulties. Unfortunately for you, it does nothing to change the question since the operating definition of reality is "the set of all that is real." Thus if God is real in any sense, he is a part of reality.
You need faith to experience the reality of God.
In order to know that God is real, I must first accept it as true that God is real. No wonder you see God everywhere!
You need faith to know that God [b]is a reality.[/b]
I'll ask you a question similar to the one I asked KJ. By God is a reality do you mean that God is a set of real things or that God is real in some sense (that is a member of a set of real things)?
Unlike Muffy, who is not a reality,
Muffy is a reality if your God is a reality, by definition. You should know that.
you cannot believe and not believe in God as you can with Muffy.
I'd say that's a very big set back for God. Let's stay out of Muffy for a while shall we?
24 May 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloNo I have never lost my faith even for a moment. I have always looked at THE WORD OF GOD, as a source of wisdom and undestanding. And I have never found any of that wisdom and undestanding to be untrue.
all your opinions are noted.
i'd like to ask you a question, seriously. have there been times when you have been skeptical of your own faith? have you ever thought, even fleetingly, that maybe it is all just a big lie, that maybe the bible is wrong, jesus lied, or maybe god doesn't even exist? do you think such skepticism can ever be healthy or good?
24 May 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloI began my study of free will with the study of Adam and Eve in The Garden of Eden. Could we agree to reason together? I'll read what you have that has formed your opinions. If you read the GENESIS chapters 2 and 3.
i agree with you that we have free will. i think this free will is of the compatibilist variety.
do you base your belief in free will on something the bible says? do you think that the bible has a view on free will in terms of whether or not it exists?
24 May 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101excellent proposal. i'll go re-read genesis chaps. 2 and 3 so that i will understand where you are coming from when you post your ideas on free will.
I began my study of free will with the study of Adam and Eve in The Garden of Eden. Could we agree to reason together? I'll read what you have that has formed your opinions. If you read the GENESIS chapters 2 and 3.
i'll let you know when i have re-read them.
24 May 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101i missed this part earlier. i wouldn't say that one piece of literature has formed my beliefs on free will. i have thoughts and ideas on the subject that are my own authorship that just follow from my understanding of the definitions involved. you can just read my posts later when we discuss free will.
I'll read what you have that has formed your opinions.
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24 May 05
2 edits
Originally posted by telerionThank you for clearing this up. I take it then when a non-believer asks you if God is real, you reply "No."
God is not real in a human sense of the word.
Thank you for clearing this up. I take it then when a non-believer asks you if God is real, you reply "No."
You cannot touch Him with your hands or see him with your eyes as back for God. Let's stay out of Muffy for a while shall we?
No, I don't. I'll reply that God is real to me, (because I have experienced Him in my life), but obviously He won't be real to the non-believer as he is to me, because the non-believer has obviously not experienced God. But God can still be real to the non-believer once he experiences the life-changing power of God in his life.
I hope that this is not what you believe others restrict "reality" to.
No. I was just clearing up that God is not as "real" as humans, in the human sense of the word.
Like ultraviolet light right? 🙂
Not quite, but almost.
If he is real in any sense, then he is a member of the set of everything that is real.
Reality is also defined as "...all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you." In that sense of the word, God is real. You have to experience Him before He becomes a reality to you.
If he is also the creator of this set, then he is the creator of himself.
I don't see what you are getting at. He is reality to the one that has experienced Him.
the operating definition of reality is "the set of all that is real." Thus if God is real in any sense, he is a part of reality.
I am afraid you need to look at more definitions of "reality". You are only picking out one of the definitions to suit you.
In order to know that God is real, I must first accept it as true that God is real. No wonder you see God everywhere!
If you accept that it is true that God is real, then it will be possible for you to experience God. If you experience God, you will know that He is real.
24 May 05
2 edits
Originally posted by blindfaith101blindfaith101,
I began my study of free will with the study of Adam and Eve in The Garden of Eden. Could we agree to reason together? I'll read what you have that has formed your opinions. If you read the GENESIS chapters 2 and 3.
i have re-read genesis chapters 2 and 3. having done so, i do not think they demonstrate the existence of free will. in fact, if i had to choose one way or the other, i would argue they demonstrate the lack of free will (though i think this argument would be weak). ultimately, i do not think the passages are conclusive either way. i base this on the following observations:
i think the passages clearly show that man has the ability to distinguish between good and evil. it spells this out pretty clearly: adam and eve both eat from the 'tree of knowledge of good and evil' and god even states toward the end that 'man is become as one of us, to know good and evil'.
however, simply having knowledge of good and evil is certainly NOT sufficient for having free will, which very loosely says that in any instance you have the ability to choose freely between performing the good act or the evil act. about whether or not man has this ability, i don't think the passages say anything explicitly. however, if i had to draw conclusions, if anything, i would say the passages indicate that man does NOT have this ability in all instances. god tells them that 'for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt SURELY DIE' and that 'ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, LEST YE DIE'. he also tells them after they eat the forbidden fruit that 'in sorrow thou shalt eat of it ALL THE DAYS OF THY LIFE'. what these quotes say to me is that man's sinning is a certainty -- it cannot possibly be avoided. indeed, he will struggle (unsucessfully) with his sinful ways every day of his life. this says that the man who wants to do good (in every instance) will not be able to. so he does not have the ability to perform the good act in every instance. therefore he does not have free will.
admittedly, this argument is weak because i am drawing conclusions that i don't think are stated explicitly.
but in short, my position is that the passages:
1. do demonstrate that man has the ability to distinguish good from evil.
2. do not explicitly demonstrate either way whether man has free will or not.
3. if anything, they indicate man cannot choose the good action in every instance (even if he wanted to). this would indicate a lack of free will.
what do you think of this argument? if you disagree and think that genesis 2 and 3 do imply the existence of free will, then what are your reasons for that position?
coletti: if you are reading, from my interpretation, i think that genesis chapters 2 and 3 would support your ideas that free will does not exist. do you agree?
24 May 05
Originally posted by bbarrTheorems were not created. They were discovered. And they were a necessary consequence of having a rational mind. Logic is just the formulation of rationality.
Did God create the theorems of first order logic, or the number 2, or the transitivity of the property 'taller than'?
24 May 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloI need to reread chapter 2 and 3 to see if those specific chapters supports my belief on free will - but I think it will show the free will is an illusion.
coletti: if you are reading, from my interpretation, i think that genesis chapters 2 and 3 would support your ideas that free will does not exist. do you agree?