- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
04 Aug 13
2 edits
Question #1: If Jesus is God, how could he die for our sins?
1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
God cannot die, yet Jesus was killed and then resurrected (Acts 5:30). The Bible does not say that only his “human nature” died; it says that Jesus died, which would include all of Jesus 100%.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
Question #2: How can Jesus be “God” and have a “God” at the same time?
The God of the Bible is the Almighty, the Creator, the Most High, and no one compares to Him. Jesus Christ cannot be “God” if he says that our heavenly Father is his “God.”
You cannot be the “Most High God” and be in submission to the “Most High God” (1 Cor.15:28) and say that He is your God. This makes no sense.
If words truly have meaning, then one cannot be “God” and have a “God” at the same time.
Check out the verses below that clearly show that our Father is the “God” of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Romans 15:6
…so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort…
Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!
The above verses are very clear. Jesus Christ has a God. Who is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ? Ephesians 1:17 very clearly says that this God is our glorious Father.
Jesus Christ himself called our Father his “God” and Father many different times in Scripture.
John 20:17 (KJV)
…I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Question #3: If Jesus was sitting at the right hand of God in heaven when the book of Revelation was written, why does Jesus continue to make such clear statements that our heavenly Father is his “God” if he himself is God?
Revelation 1:6
…[Jesus] has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father– to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Question #4: If God cannot be tempted by evil, yet Jesus was tempted in every way we are, how can he be God?
James 1:13
For God cannot be tempted by evil.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
The Bible never says that Jesus’ “human nature” was tempted, it says “Jesus” was tempted. Nowhere does it say that “part” of Jesus was tempted; it was “all” of him. If Jesus is God, this is a clear contradiction. Fortunately, Jesus is the human Son of God, so there is no contradiction.
04 Aug 13
3 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterAccording to the Holy Bible, there were certain mysteries that God chose to reveal in stages at various times. Some are still yet to be revealed.
Question #1: If Jesus is God, how could he die for our sins?
1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
God cannot die, yet Jesus was killed and then resurrected (Acts 5:30). The Bible does not say that only his “human nature” died; it says that Jesus died, which would include ...[text shortened]... a clear contradiction. Fortunately, Jesus is the human Son of God, so there is no contradiction.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(1 Timothy 3:16 KJV)
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
(Collosians 2:9 KJV)
I can not explain the mystery of how Jesus can say, "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." Jesus told His disciple that the Holy Spirit is supposed to reveal all things that Jesus spoke to them when He came.
The early Church has decided to explain it all by the Doctrine of the Trinity and I am certainly not knowledgeable enough to argue with them. So I accept that Jesus is fully man and fully God as the doctrine states. Jesus was able to die for our sins, at least in body, and He rasied His body from the dead as He said He would, which seems to prove he was also God, since God is also spoken of as raising Jesus from the dead.
In the book of revelation John writes the following:
[b]And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, i am alive foreevermore, and I have the keys to death and of Hades." [b]
(Revelation 1:17-18 NASB)
This seems to refer back to other places in this chapter which identifies the first and the last and the alpha and the omega as God the almighty, and also in Revelation 22:12-13.
So we might ask when did God die? I think this is still a mystery that is yet to be revealed, unless this somehow refers to Jesus on the cross.
The Instructor
05 Aug 13
2 edits
You quoted from Hebrews on another thread, but let me point out that it is wriiten in Hebrews that God said the following:
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
(Hebrews 1:6,8-9 NKJV)
So it seems the Son of God is worthy of worship by the angels of God and God the Father calls the Son God, as well.
The Doctrine of the Trinity may explain this mystery, in part, until it is fully revealed.
The Instructor
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
05 Aug 13
Originally posted by RJHindsToo many mysteries for me RJ...In the meantime, I will continue to believe what the bible clearly says. Jesus is the Son of God not God.
According to the Holy Bible, there were certain mysteries that God chose to reveal in stages at various times. Some are still yet to be revealed.
[b]And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory ...[text shortened]... t is yet to be revealed, unless this somehow refers to Jesus on the cross.
The Instructor
Jesus sits at the Fathers right hand, meaning he is 2nd in charge.
I believe in the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
I do serve both, they are in agreement.
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
05 Aug 13
Originally posted by RJHindsThe English language makes a clear distinction between “God” and “god.” Thus, in English Bibles, the heavenly Father is called “God,” while lesser divinities, people with God’s authority on earth and important people such as kings, are also called “god” (2 Cor. 4:4; John 10:34 and 35; Acts 12:22). The Hebrew and Aramaic languages cannot make the distinction between “God” and “god.” Since Hebrew and Aramaic have only capital letters, every use is “GOD.” Furthermore, although the Greek language has both upper case and lower case letters as English does, the early Greek manuscripts did not blend them. It was the style of writing at the time of the New Testament to make manuscripts in all capital letters, so the Greek manuscripts were, like the Hebrew text, all upper case script. Scholars call these manuscripts “uncials,” and that style was popular until the early ninth century or so when a smaller script was developed for books.
You quoted from Hebrews on another thread, but let me point out that it is wriiten in Hebrews that God said the following:
[b]But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your ...[text shortened]... of the Trinity may explain this mystery, in part, until it is fully revealed.
The Instructor
Since all texts were in upper case script, if we translated Genesis 1:1 and 2 as it appeared in the Hebrew manuscripts, it would read:
IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH NOW THE EARTH WAS FORMLESS AND EMPTY DARKNESS WAS OVER THE SURFACE OF THE DEEP AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD WAS HOVERING OVER THE WATERS.
The context must determine whether Christ is being referred to as the Supreme Being or just a man with great authority, so it must be read carefully. In this case, however, one need not read far to find that Christ, called “God,” himself has a “God.” The very next verse, Hebrews 1:9, says, “therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions.” Thus, Christ cannot be the supreme God, because the supreme God does not have a God. Furthermore, Christ’s God “set” him above others and “anointed” him. This makes it abundantly clear that the use of theos here in Hebrews is not referring to Christ being the supreme God, but rather a man with great authority under another God.
Here the context proves that the word “God” does not denote the Supreme Being, but is used in an inferior sense. This is admitted by some of the most respectable Trinitarian critics. Thus, the Rev. Dr. Mayer remarks: “Here the Son is addressed by the title God: but the context shows that it is an official title which designates him as a king: he has a kingdom, a throne and a scepter; and in verse 9 he is compared with other kings, who are called his fellows; but God can have no fellows. As the Son, therefore, he is classed with the kings of the earth, and his superiority over them consists in this, that he is anointed with the oil of gladness above them; inasmuch as their thrones are temporary, but his shall be everlasting.”
05 Aug 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterOkay. And I shall continue to believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity of the Christian Church.
Too many mysteries for me RJ...In the meantime, I will continue to believe what the bible clearly says. Jesus is the Son of God not God.
Jesus sits at the Fathers right hand, meaning he is 2nd in charge.
I believe in the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
I do serve both, they are in agreement.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!
The Instructor
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
05 Aug 13
2 edits
I believe in the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
Here is a similar sentence construction -
" ... our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ..." ( 2 Peter 1:11)
Do you believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior ?
Do you believe that Jesus is both our Lord and our Savior ?
What about this similar expression ?
"our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:1)
As He is "our Lord and Savior" do you also believe Jesus is "our God and Savior".
If not, then on what basis do you accept that Jesus is "our Lord and Savior" but is not "our God and Savior" ?
05 Aug 13
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterWe must make sure that we guard against the polytheistic view of many gods. It is proclaimed in scripture that God is One and He commands us to have no other gods before Him and not bow down before them. I think the Doctrine of the Trinity solves that conflict that allows both the angels of God an us to worship Jesus as God. I feel fine in saying Christ is my Lord and Savior and even my God as Thomas did and allow Jesus to call His Father, My God and our God, since the Son of God, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are three persons in One God, according to the Christian trinitarian belief.
The English language makes a clear distinction between “God” and “god.” Thus, in English Bibles, the heavenly Father is called “God,” while lesser divinities, people with God’s authority on earth and important people such as kings, are also called “god” (2 Cor. 4:4; John 10:34 and 35; Acts 12:22). The Hebrew and Aramaic languages cannot make the distin ...[text shortened]... of gladness above them; inasmuch as their thrones are temporary, but his shall be everlasting.”
The Instructor
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
05 Aug 13
Originally posted by sonshipIf not, then on what basis do you accept that Jesus is "our Lord and Savior" but is not "our God and Savior"I believe in the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
Here is a similar sentence construction -
[b]" ... our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ..." ( 2 Peter 1:11)
Do you believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior ?
Do you believe that Jesus is both our Lord and our Savior ?
What about this similar expression ?
"our Go ...[text shortened]... that Jesus is [b]"our Lord and Savior" but is not "our God and Savior" ?[/b]
Because the bible tells me so. God raised Jesus from the dead, God commands me to receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior... That was the prize Jesus won, to be highly exalted like Joseph in the OT.
Joseph was like god to the people, but on the throne Pharaoh was God or King.
Heb 12:1-2
...let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NKJV
What was the joy set before Jesus?
You Trinitarians think I do not esteem the Lord Jesus. But Jesus is my hero and my friend and Savior. He is my Lord and I surrender my life to him.
His suffering and work means much more to me, knowing he was a man.
Now he is a spiritual being, just like his Father.
Here are more verses to ponder...
1 Cor 15:25-28
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
05 Aug 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterIs this supposed to refute the the trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? If so, how?
[b] If not, then on what basis do you accept that Jesus is "our Lord and Savior" but is not "our God and Savior"
Because the bible tells me so. God raised Jesus from the dead, God commands me to receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior... That was the prize Jesus won, to be highly exalted like Joseph in the OT.
Joseph was like god to the people, but o ...[text shortened]... himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV[/b]
The Instructor
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
05 Aug 13
5 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b] If not, then on what basis do you accept that Jesus is "our Lord and Savior" but is not "our God and Savior"
Because the bible tells me so. God raised Jesus from the dead, God commands me to receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior... That was the prize Jesus won, to be highly exalted like Joseph in the OT.
Joseph was like god to the people, but o ...[text shortened]... himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV[/b]
Because the bible tells me so. God raised Jesus from the dead,
Jesus also said that He had the authority to lay down His life and take it up again (John 10:17)
Jesus also said to destroy this temple of His body and in three days He [Jesus] would raise it up (John 2:19)
We should learn what the Scripture says. And we should learn what else the Scripture says.
The Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1).
Through the centuries then many believers have understood that Christ is with God and Christ is God - period.
God commands me to receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior...
Amen. And He commands the same of me too. Why does that make it impossible for me to believe that the Word was with God and that the Word was God (John 1:1) ?
Believing in John 1:1 is not somehow against obeying the command for me to receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior.
That was the prize Jesus won,
For me to believe John 1:1,14 in no way makes Jesus as my Lord and Savior somehow not that prize that Jesus won.
to be highly exalted like Joseph in the OT.
Joseph was like god to the people, but on the throne Pharaoh was God or King.
I agree that one of many types of Christ in the OT is Joseph.
Believing the Joseph was a type of Christ does not necessitate that I disbelieve that "the Word was with God and the Word was God" (John 1:1)
It is not that I believe something extra. It is that you do not believe enough.
Heb 12:1-2
...let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us,
Amen. Let us do so. But that has no requirement that for this reason I do not believe John 1:1,14.
and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith,
Amen! By all means. Yet this has nothing to do with me twisting John 1:1,14. The Word with God was God and became flesh.
Wonderful verses you remind me of there. None of them mean John 1:1,14 is to not be believed too.
who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NKJV
Amen. So what ? How does that require of me that I do not believe John 1:1,14 ?
This Jesus, the Author and Perfector of my faith was with God and was God. And He became flesh (John 1:1,14).
Who is teaching you that any of these verses mean you should not believe John 1:1 ? Go tell them that you are not believing something "extra". You just want to believe all that is said in Scripture about the Person of Jesus Christ.
What was the joy set before Jesus?
You Trinitarians think I do not esteem the Lord Jesus. But Jesus is my hero and my friend and Savior.
Don't call me a Trinitarian. If you are a believer in Jesus simply call me a brother in Christ.
And I never said or implied that you do not love or esteem the Lord Jesus. Maybe you love and esteem the Lord Jesus more than me.
What does that have to do with "... and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" ?
He is my Lord and I surrender my life to him.
Pray for me that I do so also. And I do !
This has no effect on the truth of John 1:1 though.
His suffering and work means much more to me, knowing he was a man.
Now he is a spiritual being, just like his Father.
Here are more verses to ponder...
Because I confess Jesus is God does not mean I don't believe that Jesus is a man.
Some people seem to have a mistaken idea that if Jesus is God then He cannot be a man, a man who lived, suffered, died, and rose. But the Apostle John told us "And the Word became flesh and tabernacle among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of an only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality." (John 1:14)
And that Word John is talking about is the Word that was with God and was God (John 1:1)[/b]
So John already told us that the man was God become flesh - God incarnated in the only Begotten from the Father. And John furthermore told us that they heard and saw and handled with their hands this "Word of life".
So you admire the humanity of Jesus. So do I very very much. The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45).
Why can't I believe all these wonderful things about "the man Christ Jesus" and also believe that He is God ?
Why do you insist I have to believe one or the other ?
Why do you insist that the two are mutually exclusive when the word of God testifies to both ?
Do you think our hearts are not able to contain both revelations ?
I think the Christians can believe both - Jesus is God and man.
1 Cor 15:25-28
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
How does any of this mean that the Word was NOT God when John 1:1 says "and the Word was God" ?
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
You are suggesting that because of First Corinthians 15:25-28 I should not believe that "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
I am not going to reject John 1:1 because of 1 Cor. 15:25-28. I reserve the right to believe both. God whom I trust has testified to both. I don't believe that the Scripture is demanding that I make that kind of mutually exclusive trade off concerning the Person of Christ.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
05 Aug 13
Now he is a spiritual being, just like his Father.
Jesus Christ is still a man today. A glorfied man in resurrection. But He is a man still today.
"For there is one God and one Mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus ..." (1 Tim. 2:5)
Did you notice that? He is still "the MAN Christ Jesus".
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
05 Aug 13
Originally posted by sonshipAll my questions about Jesus being God are ignored, and my explanation of John 1:1 is ignored, so we are at an impasse.Because the bible tells me so. God raised Jesus from the dead,
Jesus also said that He had the authority to lay down His life and take it up again [b](John 10:17)
Jesus also said to destroy this temple of His body and in three days He [Jesus] would raise it up (John 2:19)
We should learn what the Scripture says. And ...[text shortened]... e that kind of mutually exclusive trade off concerning the Person of Christ.[/b]
BTW, I apologize for referring to you as a Trinitarian and not a brother who happens to believe in the Trinity.
I will try to be more respectful in the future.
The verse in 1 Corinth. I hoped you would respond to was in where in the end the son will be subject to the Father.
No matter, be well..
05 Aug 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterJust watching to see the usual responces given by the trinitairians and yep here they all come.
All my questions about Jesus being God are ignored, and my explanation of John 1:1 is ignored, so we are at an impasse.
BTW, I apologize for referring to you as a Trinitarian and not a brother who happens to believe in the Trinity.
I will try to be more respectful in the future.
The verse in 1 Corinth. I hoped you would respond to was in where in the end the son will be subject to the Father.
No matter, be well..
Your points are dead on but as good as they are, they can't see them. It's almost like they can't read english or whatever language they may speak in the world but this is what happens when they refuse to see.
Nothing at all in the Bible supports the trinity as neither did Jesus. But they "want" to believe it so all the proof in the world will not help until they want it.
But who knows maybe something you'll say will do some good....
05 Aug 13
Originally posted by galveston75In all these discussions there are people who read the threads but remain silent. To some extent you are speaking to them.
Just watching to see the usual responces given by the trinitairians and yep here they all come.
Your points are dead on but as good as they are, they can't see them. It's almost like they can't read english or whatever language they may speak in the world but this is what happens when they refuse to see.
Nothing at all in the Bible supports the trini ...[text shortened]... help until they want it.
But who knows maybe something you'll say will do some good....