18 Apr 11
3. the fact that God has no beginning and no end, whereas the Christ was the
first-born of creation, having a beginning
Christ also says He was there at the beginning and he has no beginning or end of days. Jesus calls himself the Alpha and Omega. He states before Abraham was I am. The Jews then wanted to kill Him and why? Why such a reaction because His claim of pre-existence and the words I am.
Manny
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by rwingettI read most of your stuff, especially the socialist/communist/anarchist stuff; it's hilarious.
"Reply" is not the right word. The only purpose your posts serve is as a springboard for me to launch into what are essentially my own monologues. As I never really have any interest in what it is you may or may not be saying, I'm not "replying" to your posts so much as I am using them as a convenient excuse to propound on my own thoughts.
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by SeitseAtheists are like months round a candle. They live in a world of no hope and are either morbidly fascinated by those who do have hope or like 'dogs in the manger' they try desperately to ensure those who have chosen a certain path don't stay on it.
It is amusing how non-Christians take so much interest
and devote so much time and effort to Christ, Christians
and Christianity.
Indeed, the King of Kings shakes the very foundations of
every human being, one way or another. If we all could
only let Him in our hearts, what a world this would be.
18 Apr 11
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou and Galveston play tag-team again? As you are ignoring the definitive scriptures in the OP I'll help you with some others.
Anyone that cannot tell the difference between the Christ and the Almighty is in
series difficulty for they are then presented with a whole host of insurmountable
problems,
1.the fact that no one has seen God at any time, yet many persons saw the Christ
2. the fact that God cannot die, yet this was the very reason that the Christ came to ...[text shortened]... cannot clearly distinguish between two persons,
how will you identify the character of either?
1.the fact that no one has seen God at any time, yet many persons saw the Christ
Colossians 1:15 "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God (please also see the Colossians scripture in the OP about the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form)
2. the fact that God cannot die, yet this was the very reason that the Christ came to the earth, to give his life
Refer to Manny's post - spot on.
3. the fact that God has no beginning and no end, whereas the Christ was the first-born of creation, having a beginning
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Who is this speaking? Please refer to verse 16 same chapter before replying)
4. the fact that Gods name Jehovah is unique to the almighty
Have you ever undertaken a study in the names of God? I recommend it. I also refer you to all the scriptures in the OP especially:
Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
and so it goes on and on, if you cannot clearly distinguish between two persons, how will you identify the character of either?
Again I refer you to my OP and especially:
Isaiah 45:21b-23 The LORD/Jehovah speaks: There is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Saviour; there is none but me. (are you saying that Jesus is NOT the saviour?)
18 Apr 11
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterLet's us look at Isaiah 9:6 Wonderful Counselor Mighty God Eternal Father and Prince of Peace ?? Now we can argue the God of the bible is a jealous God so to speak. That He would not share glory with anyone. So then why glory on Jesus? Do you get my point. Either we have a problem or agreement. The bible never says anywhere not to worship the son. So is the bible telling us to worship false gods? Would Jesus or the father tell you to do this? The bible does not ever use the word trinity and so be it. We can't in our little finite minds understand God in His fullness anyway. Every analogy we use will break down. The Church fathers however saw a quality that God revealed about Himself and it is there regardless on what we try to label. Lastly at least is a correct theological understanding necessary for salvation? Not so sure it is.
You and Galveston play tag-team again? As you are ignoring the definitive scriptures in the OP I'll help you with some others.
[b]1.the fact that no one has seen God at any time, yet many persons saw the Christ
Colossians 1:15 "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God (please also see the Colossians scripture in the OP about the ful d and a Saviour; there is none but me. (are you saying that Jesus is NOT the saviour?)[/b]
Manny
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by divegeesterOh my. So easy to understand my friend but until you ever even take the time and effort to understand they are two seperate individuals these scriptures will never become clear to you.
You and Galveston play tag-team again? As you are ignoring the definitive scriptures in the OP I'll help you with some others.
[b]1.the fact that no one has seen God at any time, yet many persons saw the Christ
Colossians 1:15 "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God (please also see the Colossians scripture in the OP about the ful ...[text shortened]... d and a Saviour; there is none but me. (are you saying that Jesus is NOT the saviour?)[/b]
We are not trying to play any games here such as tag team. I don't have time for that as I'm sure Robbie doesn't either.
But with the translations being altered in the past ever so slightly by ones that were trying to promote the trinity doctrine it easy to see why the confusions are there in most bibles.
I'm not making this up to try and convience anyone any different, but it is just a fact.
But until you or the others that want to see the truth about our God, his son and what the Holy Spirit is, this is going nowhere.
If one really wants to learn this Bible truth let us know as this is just a sampling of the info we can share with anyone.
Pick out anything that is of interest and I'll post it.
TRINITY
ancient non-Christian religions: g05 4/22 7; ti 11-12; g89 12/22 12; w88 6/1 18; g88 12/22 21
Assyria: re 250; ti 9; w88 2/15 25; it-1 202
Babylon: re 250; rs 51; ti 9-10; w88 3/1 29; w88 6/1 18; it-1 237, 974
Buddhism: ti 10
Egypt: re 250; sh 57, 59; ti 2, 10-11; g89 2/8 21; w88 6/1 18; it-1 975
Greece: w99 8/15 13; jv 36; rs 51, 406; ti 11-12
Hinduism: sh 115, 118-120; ti 10-12
Palmyra, Syria: ti 10
Rome: w88 4/1 19-20
Anglican Church:
bishop John Robinson: w93 10/15 27
antitrinitarians during and after Middle Ages: g02 6/22 11; jv 44, 124
Georgio Biandrata and Francis Dávid: g02 6/22 12-14
assisting Bible students who believe in: w98 5/15 21-23
Athanasian Creed: g05 4/22 6; w93 10/15 27; w92 8/1 21-22; rs 405, 408-412; ti 9
Baptist Church: w91 11/1 19-20
Catholic Church: w92 4/1 26; w91 11/1 19-20; rs 42; ti 3-9, 21-23; w88 4/1 20; w87 6/15 3
admittedly not Biblical: ti 5-6
Catholic Encyclopedia, The: w91 11/1 19; rs 42; ti 3-5, 22; w88 6/1 10
New Catholic Encyclopedia: g05 4/22 7; w00 6/1 5; w94 6/1 11; rs 42, 405, 407; ti 4-7, 22-23; g89 12/22 12; w88 6/1 10, 18; w87 6/15 4
central doctrine of Christendom’s religions: ti 3; w88 6/1 10-11, 14
Church Fathers: w93 10/15 28-29; w92 8/1 21; ti 7
after Council of Nicaea (4th century): w01 4/15 20
Apologists (2nd century): w92 4/1 24-30
Apostolic Fathers (1st and 2nd centuries): w92 2/1 19-23
clarification of Witnesses’ position (1882): jv 123, 125; w89 3/15 18-19
comments by—
book The Divinity of Jesus Christ: w94 6/1 30
Encyclopædia Britannica: w02 7/15 18
Encyclopedia Americana, The: w00 6/1 5
Rabbi Naḥmanides (1263): w97 4/15 21
Russell, C. T.: jv 123, 125-126
scholars: w06 12/1 6; w91 11/1 22
confusion over teaching: ti 4-5; w88 6/1 10
death penalty for denying: w87 6/15 4
development: w00 6/1 5; w92 8/1 19-24; sh 264, 266, 274-277, 279; w89 3/1 5; ti 7-9; g89 6/22 26-27; w88 4/1 19-20; w88 6/1 18, 20; w87 6/15 4, 21
325 C.E., Council of Nicaea: w03 7/15 29, 31; w92 8/1 19-21; w91 11/1 20; sh 275-276; ti 7-8
381 C.E., Council of Constantinople: w92 8/1 21; w91 11/1 20; ti 8
382 C.E., Tome of Damasus: w91 11/1 20
451 C.E., Council of Chalcedon: sh 279
discussion: bh 201-204; g05 4/22 5-9; ol 25; rq 22; w91 11/1 19-23; pe 39-41; rs 405-426; ti 2-31; w88 6/1 10-20; w87 6/15 3-7
dishonors God: ti 30-31
dishonors Jesus: w91 2/1 15
early Christians: rs 405-406; ti 6-7
effect of removal of divine name from Bible: sh 232; w88 8/1 30
elohim: rs 415-416; ti 13-14
Eskimo: g89 9/22 14
experiences: w03 5/1 5
illustration of family relationships: w98 5/15 22-23
prays to find answers: yb04 60
professor sees through: yb90 122
Trinity brochure: g98 4/22 31
Father identified as God: g05 4/22 5; rs 411
Greek Orthodox Church: ti 3; w88 6/1 10-11
harmful effects of teaching: w92 8/1 23; rs 424-425
holy spirit not a person: g 7/06 14-15; w91 1/15 3-4; rs 406-407; ti 20-23; w88 6/1 14; w87 6/15 5, 7
holy spirit not God: rs 412
Jehovah and Jesus separate persons: g05 4/22 5-7; w02 5/15 6; w94 6/1 29-30; rs 150, 198, 407-408; ti 17; w88 6/1 10-12
Jehovah is One and is Supreme: kl 30-31; w94 6/1 30-31; rs 405, 411, 415-416; ti 12-14; it-2 54
Jesus Christ: w92 1/15 20-23
“a corresponding ransom” (1Ti 2:6): ti 15
created: bh 41; rs 408-409; ti 14
faith in God: w94 10/15 12-15
Father is the God of: w06 3/1 5-6; rs 411
inferior to Father: g05 4/22 6-7; w91 2/1 15; si 198; rs 409-411; w88 6/1 12-13; it-2 54
inferior to God: re 15; w92 1/15 22; w92 4/1 24-30; ti 16-20; w88 6/1 19
in heaven, inferior to God: g05 4/22 5-6; rs 410-411; ti 19-20
knowledge limited: ti 19
Lord: w94 6/1 29-31
miracles do not imply Trinity: w92 1/15 21-22
not Almighty God: re 65; w05 9/15 7; g05 4/22 5-7; w02 5/15 6; w90 9/15 5-6; w89 4/15 21; rs 212-216, 411; ti 13, 20, 28-29; w88 6/1 10-13; w87 6/15 6-7
not ‘God the Son’: ti 16; w88 6/1 11-12
“one” with Father: rs 424; ti 24; w88 6/1 15-16; it-2 55; w87 6/15 6
“only-begotten Son”: ti 15-16; it-2 556
tempted: ti 14-15
meaning of term: g05 4/22 6; w91 11/1 20-21; rs 405; ti 3-4; w88 6/1 10-11; w87 6/15 4
Jesus said to be in heaven while on earth: w91 11/1 20
mystery: g92 3/8 26-27
argument that mystery implies divine revelation: ti 4-5
comment of booklet The Blessed Trinity: w87 6/15 3
not in Bible: w06 12/1 6; w01 4/15 20; jv 622; w91 11/1 21-23; sh 219; ti 5-6, 12-13
Christian Scriptures: w93 10/15 27-30; w89 3/1 5; ti 6; w88 6/1 18; w87 6/15 4
Hebrew Scriptures: w89 4/15 21; ti 6; w88 6/1 18
origin of belief: re 250; g05 4/22 7; w99 8/15 13; jv 36; rs 405-406; ti 11-12; w88 6/1 18
origin of term: w92 8/1 22-23; ti 5
quiz and answers: g94 9/8 11-13
religions rejecting:
Islam: sh 296-297
Judaism: w97 4/15 21
Polish Brethren: yb94 173
Socinians: g88 11/22 19-22
Unity of Brethren (Minor Party): w03 12/15 12
representations: g05 4/22 7; w89 4/15 6; ti 10; w87 6/15 4
scriptures applied to both Jehovah and Jesus: rs 414
scriptures misapplied to support: w92 1/15 21-23; rs 412-424; ti 23-29
Genesis 1:1: rs 415
Genesis 1:26: w92 1/15 21; ti 14; it-2 1203
Deuteronomy 6:4: rs 405, 415-416
Isaiah 7:14: it-1 1188
Isaiah 9:6: ip-1 130-131; w92 1/15 22; rs 413-414; ti 28
Isaiah 43:10: w92 1/15 22; rs 413
Isaiah 43:11: rs 413
Isaiah 44:6: re 27-28
Micah 5:2: rs 409
Matthew 1:23: w92 1/15 22-23; rs 214; it-1 1188
Matthew 3:16, 17: w92 1/15 21
Matthew 28:19: w02 7/15 18-19; w92 1/15 21; w91 11/1 23; rs 414-415; ti 23; w87 6/15 4-5
John 1:1: w08 11/1 24-25; bh 202-203; g05 4/22 8-9; w99 8/1 10; w93 10/15 28; w91 11/1 23; rs 212-213, 416-417; ti 26-28; w88 6/1 16-19; it-2 53-54, 1202-1203
John 1:18: it-2 557
John 1:23: ip-1 400; rs 414
John 2:19: rs 423-424
John 5:18: rs 214; ti 24-25; w88 6/1 19
John 8:58: rs 417-418; ti 26; w88 7/15 6; g87 3/22 12
John 10:30: w93 10/15 28-29; gt 81; rs 424; ti 24; w88 6/1 15-16; it-2 55; w87 6/15 6
John 14:9: it-2 55
John 20:28: g05 4/22 9; w92 1/15 23; rs 213; ti 29; w88 6/1 19; it-2 55-56
Acts 20:28: rs 418
Romans 9:5: rs 418-419
1 Corinthians 12:4-6: ti 23
2 Corinthians 13:14: ti 23
Philippians 2:5, 6: rs 419-420; ti 25-26
Colossians 2:9: rs 420-421; it-1 639
1 Timothy 3:16: w97 10/15 11; w90 1/15 12
Titus 2:13: rs 421
Hebrews 1:6: w92 1/15 23; rs 214-215
Hebrews 1:8: rs 422
Hebrews 1:10-12: rs 414
1 John 5:7: w97 10/1 13; rs 422-423; w87 6/15 6
1 John 5:20: w04 10/15 30-31
Revelation 1:11: rs 412
Revelation 1:17: re 27-28
Revelation 22:12: rs 413
Revelation 22:13: rs 413
Shinto: sh 199
titles applied to Jehovah and Jesus: rs 412-414
various religions: w88 6/1 18
view of:
Clement of Alexandria: w93 10/15 29; w92 4/1 27-28; ti 7
Clement of Rome: w92 2/1 20
Eusebius of Caesarea: w03 7/15 31
Hermas: w92 2/1 22
Hippolytus: ti 7
Ignatius: w92 2/1 21
Irenaeus: w93 10/15 29; ti 7
Justin Martyr: w92 4/1 24, 26-27; ti 7
Milton, John: w07 9/15 13; g88 11/22 22
Newton, Sir Isaac: g88 11/22 22
Novatian: w93 10/15 28-29
Origen: w01 7/15 30-31; ti 7
Polycarp: w92 2/1 22
Servetus, Michael: g 5/06 19; sh 322; g89 8/22 19; g88 11/22 19-20
Tertullian: w02 5/15 30-31; w92 4/1 28-29; ti 5-7
World Council of Churches: g91 2/22 5, 11
Quotations
a late 4th-century invention: g05 4/22 7
among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective: w00 6/1 5; w94 6/1 11; rs 405; ti 7; w88 6/1 18
a teaching of the church rather than of Jesus: g05 4/22 6
Bible of Christians includes no assertions about God that are specifically trinitarian: sh 219
developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies: w91 11/1 22; rs 42, 405; w88 6/1 18; w87 6/15 4, 21; w86 12/1 6
God’s spirit is simply God’s power: ti 22
majority of NT texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone: rs 407; ti 22; w88 6/1 14
neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament: w02 7/15 18; w99 8/1 10; w94 6/1 11; g92 3/8 27; w91 11/1 22; g91 2/22 11; w89 3/1 5; rs 42, 405; ti 6; w88 6/1 18; w87 6/15 4, 21; w86 12/1 6
no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a Trinity within the Godhead: ti 6
not a biblical idea: g05 4/22 7
not directly and immediately the word of God: ti 5
nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person: ti 22
Platonic trinity gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches: jv 36; rs 51, 406; ti 11
removal of Tetragrammaton contributed to Trinitarian debates: sh 232; w88 8/1 30
when the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor do they think of him as God: w94 6/1 30
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by galveston75G-75 was that really necessary ? LOL who will take the time to read that? It all comes from your own organization (Watchtower anyway) Reason outside of your organizations dogma for a while. How about just a bible ?
Oh my. So easy to understand my friend but until you ever even take the time and effort to understand they are two seperate individuals these scriptures will never become clear to you.
We are not trying to play any games here such as tag team. I don't have time for that as I'm sure Robbie doesn't either.
But with the translations being altered in the ...[text shortened]... peak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor do they think of him as God: w94 6/1 30
Manny
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by menace71Look back over this when you get the time and you will see many, many referances from outside sources. It's not a waist of time if it shows the truth, right?
G-75 was that really necessary ? LOL who will take the time to read that? It all comes from your own organization (Watchtower anyway) Reason outside of your organizations dogma for a while. How about just a bible ?
Manny
18 Apr 11
The trinity actually dishoners God.
“THOSE honoring me I shall honor,” says God. (1 Samuel 2:30) Does it honor God to call anyone his equal? Does it honor him to call Mary “the mother of God” and the “Mediatrix . . . between the Creator and His creatures,” as does the New Catholic Encyclopedia? No, those ideas insult God. No one is his equal; nor did he have a fleshly mother, since Jesus was not God. And there is no “Mediatrix,” for God has appointed only “one mediator between God and men,” Jesus.—1 Timothy 2:5; 1 John 2:1, 2.
Beyond a doubt, the Trinity doctrine has confused and diluted people’s understanding of God’s true position. It prevents people from accurately knowing the Universal Sovereign, Jehovah God, and from worshiping him on his terms. As theologian Hans Küng said: “Why should anyone want to add anything to the notion of God’s oneness and uniqueness that can only dilute or nullify that oneness and uniqueness?” But that is what belief in the Trinity has done.
Those who believe in the Trinity are not “holding God in accurate knowledge.” (Romans 1:28) That verse also says: “God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting.” Verses 29 to 31 list some of those ‘unfitting’ things, such as ‘murder, strife, being false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless.’ Those very things have been practiced by religions that accept the Trinity.
For instance, Trinitarians have often persecuted and even killed those who rejected the Trinity doctrine. And they have gone even further. They have killed their fellow Trinitarians in wartime. What could be more ‘unfitting’ than Catholics killing Catholics, Orthodox killing Orthodox, Protestants killing Protestants—all in the name of the same Trinitarian God?
Yet, Jesus plainly said: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:35) God’s Word expands on this, saying: “The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother.” It likens those who kill their spiritual brothers to “Cain, who originated with the wicked one [Satan] and slaughtered his brother.”—1 John 3:10-12.
Thus, the teaching of confusing doctrines about God has led to actions that violate his laws. Indeed, what has happened throughout Christendom is what Danish theologian Søren Kierkegaard described: “Christendom has done away with Christianity without being quite aware of it.”
Christendom’s spiritual condition fits what the apostle Paul wrote: “They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.”—Titus 1:16.
Soon, when God brings this present wicked system of things to its end, Trinitarian Christendom will be called to account. And she will be judged adversely for her God-dishonoring actions and doctrines.—Matthew 24:14, 34; 25:31-34, 41, 46; Revelation 17:1-6, 16; 18:1-8, 20, 24; 19:17-21.
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by galveston75No I can't say it does show the truth. So point blank question who does G-75 (Steve say) your own words that the Christ is?
Look back over this when you get the time and you will see many, many referances from outside sources. It's not a waist of time if it shows the truth, right?
Can you talk with Him? Pray to Him? Is he real to you? Or just some figure that has great theological importance but nothing more personal then that.
Manny
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by menace71“one mediator between God and men,” Jesus. Why does Jehovah God need a mediator at all?
No I can't say it does show the truth. So point blank question who does G-75 (Steve say) your own words that the Christ is?
Can you talk with Him? Pray to Him? Is he real to you? Or just some figure that has great theological importance but nothing more personal then that.
Manny
Manny
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by galveston75There will always be those who claim to be Christian but do not do what is right in history. So what?!! So throw out the baby with the bathwater? What I'm saying is there is a real Christianity behind all of the garbage.
The trinity actually dishoners God.
“THOSE honoring me I shall honor,” says God. (1 Samuel 2:30) Does it honor God to call anyone his equal? Does it honor him to call Mary “the mother of God” and the “Mediatrix . . . between the Creator and His creatures,” as does the New Catholic Encyclopedia? No, those ideas insult God. No one is his equal; nor ...[text shortened]... doctrines.—Matthew 24:14, 34; 25:31-34, 41, 46; Revelation 17:1-6, 16; 18:1-8, 20, 24; 19:17-21.
-Manny-
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by menace71Why are you so confused about this? Yes he is real and yes it is thru his sacrifice that we can have a chance to gain salvation and I pray thru him to his Father Jehovah. Did he himself tell us to do this?
No I can't say it does show the truth. So point blank question who does G-75 (Steve say) your own words that the Christ is?
Can you talk with Him? Pray to Him? Is he real to you? Or just some figure that has great theological importance but nothing more personal then that.
Manny
John 14:6 (New Living Translation)
6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
Where have you got the impression he isn't real to us? I don't think your really listening or reading what we've been saying to you for over a year now.
18 Apr 11
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71So it's ok to mix truth with a even just a little badness? Are you really saying that?
There will always be those who claim to be Christian but do not do what is right in history. So what?!! So throw out the baby with the bathwater? What I'm saying is there is a real Christianity behind all of the garbage.
-Manny-
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by menace71You really have no idea do you? The Bible says that's the way it has been set up by God himself but you don't see the need of that? You say you know positively God is part of a trinity beyond a doubt, but then you don't see why the Bible says there is a need of a mediator?
“one mediator between God and men,” Jesus. Why does Jehovah God need a mediator at all?
Manny