18 Apr 11
Originally posted by galveston75LOL I was questioning you........LOL Man I give up. I believe that no one in heaven under the heavens nor any created being is worthy to be the redeemer of man. No angels nobody except one and one alone. This one alone is not an angel nor was he created. He also created this universe. John 1:10 says
You really have no idea do you? The Bible says that's the way it has been set up by God himself but you don't see the need of that? You say you know positively God is part of a trinity beyond a doubt, but then you don't see why the Bible says there is a need of a mediator?
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Manny
18 Apr 11
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71So no idea who the Bible says was the firstborn of all creation?
LOL I was questioning you........LOL Man I give up. I believe that no one in heaven under the heavens nor any created being is worthy to be the redeemer of man. No angels nobody except one and one alone. This one alone is not an angel nor was he created. He also created this universe. John 1:10 says
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Manny
Since all created things had a beginning, there was a time when God was alone. Countless ages ago, however, God became a Creator. Who was his first creation? The last book of the Bible identifies Jesus as “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Revelation 3:14) Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation.” That is so “because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible.” (Colossians 1:15, 16) Yes, Jesus was the only one directly created by God himself. Therefore, he is called God’s “only-begotten Son.” (John 3:16) The firstborn Son also bears the title “the Word.” (John 1:14) Why? Because before being born as a human, he served in heaven as one who spoke for God.
“The Word” was with Jehovah God “in the beginning,” when “the heavens and the earth” were created. He was the one to whom God said: “Let us make man in our image.” (John 1:1; Genesis 1:1, 26) Jehovah’s firstborn Son was there at his Father’s side, actively working with him. At Proverbs 8:22-31, he is represented as saying: “I came to be beside [the Creator] as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time.”
How intimately Jehovah God and his only-begotten Son must have come to know each other as they worked side by side! That close association with Jehovah for untold ages deeply affected God’s Son. This obedient Son came to be just like his Father, Jehovah. In fact, Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus “the image of the invisible God.” This is one reason why knowledge about Jesus is vital in satisfying our spiritual need and our natural desire to know God. Everything Jesus did while on earth is exactly what Jehovah expected him to do. Hence, getting to know Jesus also means increasing our knowledge of Jehovah. (John 8:28; 14:8-10) But how did Jesus come to be on earth?
I truly hope yout reading these scriptures. If not then I really don't think your serious with this matter.
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by galveston75so you're going to watch bread and wine get passed around while nobody partakes? sounds scintillating...and hardly what Christ asked. Communion is for all believers and can be done whenever the elder thinks it appropriate
If you understood the context and meanings of these scriptures and did a little research on word meanings in the original languages it was written in you wouldn't be using them to try and prove your thought. They really don't help.
You pick out a few that you maybe, slightly on a bad day think this is what their saying but you refuse to see the rest of ...[text shortened]... follwers to do on this night. It's where you should be too if you are indeed a Christian.
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by galveston75THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION- Interpretations
So no idea who the Bible says was the firstborn of all creation?
Since all created things had a beginning, there was a time when God was alone. Countless ages ago, however, God became a Creator. Who was his first creation? The last book of the Bible identifies Jesus as “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Revelation 3:14) Jesus is “the firstborn ...[text shortened]... yout reading these scriptures. If not then I really don't think your serious with this matter.
The expression “firstborn of all creation” in Colossians 1:15 has been interpreted in three different ways. First, the Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups have argued that it means that Jesus was the first creature created by God. Well, a text without a context is a pretext, and this definitely does not fit the context. After saying that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, Paul adds in verse 16, “Because all things were created in Him.” It simply makes no sense to say that Christ is the first creature because everything was created in Him. This is so obvious that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have added the word “other” four times to verses 16 and 17 to make Paul say that all other things were created in Christ.
THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION- Created Head of Creation?
The second explanation is that Christ is called the “firstborn of all creation” because, as the exalted incarnate Son of God, He is both created and the head in all creation. This explanation is consistent with the orthodox view of Christ, since orthodox Christianity teaches that Jesus is both the Creator God and a real human being. However, since verse 16 says that all things were created through Christ, and verse 17 says that Christ is before all things, Paul seems to be speaking in verses 16 and 17 of what Christ always has been and not merely of what He has become since exalted as a man.
THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION- Eternal Son of God
The third explanation is that Christ is called the “firstborn of all creation” because the entire created universe was created in, through, and for Him as the eternal Son of God. This interpretation seems to fit the context and has been favored by the vast majority of biblical scholars. The one interpretation, of course, which is certainly wrong is the one which tries to make this verse prove that Jesus is not the Creator.
taken from http://www.equip.org/perspectives/colossians-1-15-the-firstborn-of-all-creation
Manny
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by DowardIf it was for all believers then why didn't Jesus have this dinner with all his believers?
so you're going to watch bread and wine get passed around while nobody partakes? sounds scintillating...and hardly what Christ asked. Communion is for all believers and can be done whenever the elder thinks it appropriate
18 Apr 11
Originally posted by menace71David's description of Jesus:
THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION- Interpretations
The expression “firstborn of all creation” in Colossians 1:15 has been interpreted in three different ways. First, the Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups have argued that it means that Jesus was the first creature created by God. Well, a text without a context is a pretext, and this definitely does not fit t ...[text shortened]... from http://www.equip.org/perspectives/colossians-1-15-the-firstborn-of-all-creation
Manny
22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning,
before he created anything else.
23 I was appointed in ages past,
at the very first, before the earth began.
24 I was born before the oceans were created,
before the springs bubbled forth their waters.
25 Before the mountains were formed,
before the hills, I was born—
26 before he had made the earth and fields
and the first handfuls of soil.
27 I was there when he established the heavens,
when he drew the horizon on the oceans.
28 I was there when he set the clouds above,
when he established springs deep in the earth.
29 I was there when he set the limits of the seas,
so they would not spread beyond their boundaries.
And when he marked off the earth’s foundations,
30 I was the architect at his side.
I was his constant delight,
rejoicing always in his presence.
31 And how happy I was with the world he created;
how I rejoiced with the human family!
Even David himself knew of Jesus's beginnings.
19 Apr 11
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterthey are not names of God, they are titles for Jesus, God has one name, its Jehovah, end of.
You and Galveston play tag-team again? As you are ignoring the definitive scriptures in the OP I'll help you with some others.
[b]1.the fact that no one has seen God at any time, yet many persons saw the Christ
Colossians 1:15 "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God (please also see the Colossians scripture in the OP about the ful d and a Saviour; there is none but me. (are you saying that Jesus is NOT the saviour?)[/b]
19 Apr 11
Originally posted by galveston75From where is this taken ? Palms Can you give me a reference thanks so we can look at it in context.
David's description of Jesus:
22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning,
before he created anything else.
23 I was appointed in ages past,
at the very first, before the earth began.
24 I was born before the oceans were created,
before the springs bubbled forth their waters.
25 Before the mountains were formed,
before ...[text shortened]... how I rejoiced with the human family!
Even David himself knew of Jesus's beginnings.
Manny
19 Apr 11
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Also The JW understanding of that scripture and many others is twisted and not correct. The NWT is a made up to suite the doctrine of the JW's nobody else.
David's description of Jesus:
22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning,
before he created anything else.
23 I was appointed in ages past,
at the very first, before the earth began.
24 I was born before the oceans were created,
before the springs bubbled forth their waters.
25 Before the mountains were formed,
before ...[text shortened]... how I rejoiced with the human family!
Even David himself knew of Jesus's beginnings.
So are we to think that according to Col 1:15 that Christ was a created being? What is the true understanding of this verse?
Manny
19 Apr 11
1 edit
Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus “the image of the invisible God.”
The image? Think about that statement alone. The image of someone is them. The image of G-75 is G-75 or the image of Manny is Manny.
Well what does it mean that He was the firstborn? It's a simple thing, prototokosin the Greek, it means the right to rule, the heir, the ranking one, the one in authority. It has to do with the rights of inheritance. You know, in the Jewish mind the firstborn was the one who inherited everything. And what it is saying here is that Christ is the inheritor of all creation. He is the heir of everything. It doesn't mean necessarily that He had to be born or that He had to be the first one born. You think of Jacob and Esau. Esau was born first but Jacob was the heir. Jacob was the prototokos.
Taken from a sermon from John Macarthur
Manny
19 Apr 11
Think of it in terms of Psalm 89:27 which I think is helpful. It says this, this is God speaking: "I will also make Him My firstborn." What do You mean, God? He followed it by saying this, "The highest of the kings of the earth." What is the definition of "firstborn"? The ranking one, the supreme one, the highest monarch. If you want it in the terms of Revelation, "The King of kings and Lord of lords." That's what prototokosmeans.
More from the same sermon
Manny