30 Aug 14
3 edits
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI think it is more accurate to say that your interpretation of what I said is more than a little bit off target. Indeed such great minds you speak of like Newton, Euler, Riemann, Gauss, and so on ...
That's a naive assumption.
Some of the greatest minds/seekers in the scientific world have been/are theists--- not a single one of whom resort to magic, all of whom are very comfortable with the known unknowns... and with the knowledge that even if their striving never produces the solution, the One who created it will.
yeah my examples were all mathematicians ... feel free to substitute physicist, philosophers, and so on on ...
are the ones who, in spite of their belief that there exists a god (the popular notion of Christian "G"od no less), they still made marvellous contributions to the fields of mathematics and physics which enabled us as a collective to ask questions that were further reaching than their predecessors. As such these of whom you speak would fall into the category of greater intellect that I mentioned in my initial entry into this thread. I say this in spite of the fact that they are theists (though it is debatable as to whether they would have the same theistic views had they instead lived in the times that we do now).
On the other hand, the lesser minds that I spoke of are those who are ill-equipped to conduct any type of serious inquiry; those who at the merest hint of intellectual difficulty cede victory to the thought smothering haze that has enveloped their brains; those who resign themselves to a comforting, yet demonstrably wrong, notion that it must all hang together by magic - somehow.
These lesser minds, often with a predilection towards bigotry and violence,
and peering beyond their velvet sophistries one sees there are examples of such on these boards
are happy to "know" that they know everything. Furthermore, that they know everything prevents any appreciation for the questions of others - "they blaspheme!", "they are spreading lies", "they are evil!!" yes I'm aiming at the fundamentalists here
.30 Aug 14
2 edits
Originally posted by josephwWhat is that stuff there?
What is that stuff there? If I make an edit can you see what was edited? What if I typed out a post, then didn't post it, but didn't erase it either, and moved to a different screen, can you do some sort of hack thing and see it?
Just curious.
A log of the sequential, albeit somewhat deliberate, edits I made in the last post.
If I make an edit can you see what was edited?
Only if one keeps a handle on the stale data (by not refreshing one tab whilst refreshing another)
What if I typed out a post, then didn't post it, but didn't erase it either, and moved to a different screen, can you do some sort of hack thing and see it?
No ... ask yourself what doesn't happen if you do not actually make the post - ask yourself what is there for another reader to fetch from the rhp server(s) given that you haven't submitted the data you haven't erased on your own computer.
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by FMFI think you need to make the distinction between magic and miracle.
The assertion that the Bible, the Torah and the Koran, for example, are "divinely inspired" by a supernatural God figure are claims that magic has occurred.
According to Marriam-Webster a miracle is: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs.
Magic is: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces.
If the Bible actually contains the Word of God, it would necessarily mean that it exists as a manifestation of divine intervention. Your assertion that it is a claim of magic is without reason. You know magic is an illusion, so why state that it is claimed that the scriptures are "divinely inspired" through magic?
It's either true or false. The scriptures are divinely inspired, or not. Magic has nothing to do with anything supernatural. Why make assertions you are unable to substantiate? Your assertion that "magic has occurred", as it relates to a claim of divine inspiration, is only your opinion. One based on false reasoning and irrational logic.
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by AgergI never claimed to be computer savvy. 😉
[b]What is that stuff there?
A log of the sequential, albeit somewhat deliberate, edits I made in the last post.
If I make an edit can you see what was edited?
Only if one keeps a handle on the stale data (by not refreshing one tab whilst refreshing another)
What if I typed out a post, then didn't post it, but didn't erase it either, and ...[text shortened]... rhp server(s) given that you haven't submitted the data you haven't erased on your own computer.
Appreciate the clarification.
Originally posted by josephwEh!?? you say:
I think you need to make the distinction between magic and miracle.
According to Marriam-Webster a miracle is: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs.
Magic is: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces.
If the Bible actually contains the Word of God, it would nece ...[text shortened]... of divine inspiration, is only your opinion. One based on false reasoning and irrational logic.
Magic is: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces.
and then follow up with
It's either true or false. The scriptures are divinely inspired, or not. Magic has nothing to do with anything supernatural.
I.e. something believed to have supernatural power over natural forces that simultaneously has nothing to do with the supernatural ... what exactly are you smoking these days josephw!?? 😕
Magic, miracles ... same thing. With just a faint sprinkling of twinkle dust, one can hurl fireballs around, raise people from the dead, or rend the sea in two with just a command.
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by AgergHe is saying that magic is the use of means some believe to have supernatural power over natural forces. However, we know magic is an illusionary trick and has nothing to do with supernatural power. I hope I stated that clear enough for you to understand.
Eh!?? you say:
Magic is: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces.
and then follow up with
It's either true or false. The scriptures are divinely inspired, or not. Magic has nothing to do with anything supernatural.
I.e. something believed to have supernatural power o ...[text shortened]... n hurl fireballs around, raise people from the dead, or rend the sea in two with just a command.
31 Aug 14
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsI acknowledged the word believe - and it is also true that miracles are believed to be the actions of a supreme entity affecting the natural world/universe with supernatural powers. I.e. in this respect (and others) there is no difference between magic and miracles.
He is saying that magic is the use of means some [b]believe to have supernatural power over natural forces. However, we know magic is an illusionary trick and has nothing to do with supernatural power. I hope I stated that clear enough for you to understand.[/b]
All that said even the belief that magic is some means to have supernatural power - it is still very much pertaining to the supernatural, and so is in contradiction to the claim that it has nothing to do with the supernatural. My observation still stands and you have cleared up nothing.
31 Aug 14
1 edit
Originally posted by AgergMaybe this will help:
I acknowledged the word believe - and it is also true that miracles are [b]believed to be the actions of a supreme entity affecting the natural world/universe with supernatural powers. I.e. in this respect (and others) there is no difference between magic and miracles.
All that said even the belief that magic is some means to have supernatural power - i ...[text shortened]... uch pertaining to the supernatural. My observation still stands and you have cleared up nothing.[/b]
Magic is not real happenings.
Miracles are real happenings.
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by RJHindsIt doesn't help since neither are real; and as far as I'm concerned they are synonymous. Further, that still doesn't help clear up the contradiction - even if you were correct with this claim (which you are most certainly not).
Maybe this will help:
Magic is not real.
Miracles are real.
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by AgergYes , I understand what you mean now.
It doesn't help since neither are real; and as far as I'm concerned they are synonymous. Further, that [b]still doesn't help clear up the contradiction - even if you were correct with this claim (which you are most certainly not).[/b]
You believe magic and miracle are just two words meaning the same thing, since you don't believe either one is a real supernatural event, Right?
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by josephwMiracles/magic are synonymous in so far as what we are discussing here is concerned. We are not talking about "magic" in the TV show sense, just as we are not talking about "miracles" in the 3-seconds-to-go Hail Mary pass sense. In the case of both words we are talking about "supernatural power over natural forces".
I think you need to make the distinction between magic and miracle.
According to Marriam-Webster a miracle is: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs.
Magic is: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces.
If the Bible actually contains the Word of God, it would nece ...[text shortened]... of divine inspiration, is only your opinion. One based on false reasoning and irrational logic.