Is The Bible Accurate?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
And here is 192 Biblical false prophecies for you....

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

I wanted 200 just so I could have 10 times your amount.

Here's another one. I'll find 7 more

OT claims sodomy to be a sin, and yet gay priests have been endorsed (or whatever) by the RCC. You might not be RCC, but the bible is the same. Surely it couldn't be ambigous now, could it?

That is some list!!!!! Most of it is nonsense, however. Take the first one for example. God told Adam that if he partook of the fruit he will surely die. Then he eats and lives for another 900+ years. He does then die does he not? Just because he lived some 900 years after he sinned did not negate the prophesy. Most of the other ones in the old testament are about the failed prophetic fulfillments of the Israeli occupation of the promised land. That is because it is yet to come. This is talked about regarding the Millenial reign that is yet to come. A prophetic word is just that. It is not immediate usually or what we consider to be soon enough. Remember that a day to God is as a 1000 years to us. It also claims that there are no prophetic words about Christ dying on the cross. This is also not correct. Read Isaiah 53 if you want to see the prophesies. There have been many highly intelligent people who have embraced the Bible and its teachings. Let's face it, it has been the most influentual book ever written in the history of man. Why then is it hated so? I think it is because it is viewed as intolerent and judgemental. As Jesus once wrote he has brought light into a world of darkness and the world hated the light because their deeds were evil. What is God to do? Is he to ignore the evil and embrace wickedness? Would he still be considered just? Jesus said that he had not come into the world to condemn the world but convict the world of sin so that through him they might be saved. This can only be done if you admit to and despise your own sinfulness. If, on the other hand, you have an agenda in protecting and hiding your sinfulness then the gospel becomes your enemy. It sheds light onto your dark ways and exposes it for all to see. As far as what the church endorses it can either endorse what the Bible teaches or its own beliefs. This does not change the truth just because they claim to speak for God. As a matter of fact, Jesus spent the majority of his time lashing out at the religious leaders of his day because of their hypocrisy. Hypocrisy was one of the most hated sins Christ spoke about. In effect, they were people speaking in the name of God and not living up to his standards. This gave God a bad wrap. Its like someone speaking in my name and not living in a way in which I would approve of. They may deliver the correct message I gave them to deliver, but they would give me a bad name by the way in which they lived.

Originally posted by whodey
That is some list!!!!! Most of it is nonsense, however. Take the first one for example. God told Adam that if he partook of the fruit he will surely die. Then he eats and lives for another 900+ years. He does then die does he not? Just because he lived some 900 years after he sinned did not negate the prophesy. Most of the other ones in the old testame ...[text shortened]... ssage I gave them to deliver, but they would give me a bad name by the way in which they lived.

I prophesize that you will die. So will I. Man, if this comes true, I MUST have supernatural powers! Or how would I know?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I prophesize that you will die. So will I. Man, if this comes true, I MUST have supernatural powers! Or how would I know?

I will see your 192 claimed unfulfilled prophecies and give you 2000 claimed fulfilled prophesies.

http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm

Originally posted by whodey
That is some list!!!!! Most of it is nonsense, however. Take the first one for example. God told Adam that if he partook of the fruit he will surely die. Then he eats and lives for another 900+ years. He does then die does he not? Just because he lived some 900 years after he sinned did not negate the prophesy. Most of the other ones in the old testame ...[text shortened]... ssage I gave them to deliver, but they would give me a bad name by the way in which they lived.

So basically you are saying that because it has not happenned yet, and it is impossible to prove that it'll never happen (you can never prove that things will never happen), then it must be true?

I have nothing to hide about my 'sinfulness'. I don't believe in sin, because I'm not religious. I do believe in trying to treat people well though. I don't resent the bible because it goes against my moral values, I resent the bible because it teaches people to have the attitude that we can and should tolerate bad things happening in the world because it's 'god's way'. Nonsense. Get out there, use your brain. Look for the factual reality, don't rely on god to save you - you're going to die and the only difference you'll ever make will be what you do in this world, so make the most of it.

Originally posted by whodey
I will see your 192 claimed unfulfilled prophecies and give you 2000 claimed fulfilled prophesies.

http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm

From what I can see, those 'evidences' are much like the ones in the opening post. So the bible is an almanac of information. There is no evidence though that it is gods word, because most of these things were discovered independantly by other cultures. If these evidences were so important and gave the Jews / proto-Christians as much of an advantage as you describe why was the Roman empire the greatest force on the planet, and not a 'christian / jewish empire' instead? Why did the Muslims or the Greeks hold so much sway, if they were so uneducated compared to the proto-christians with their book of knowledge??

Originally posted by scottishinnz
And here is 192 Biblical false prophecies for you....

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

I wanted 200 just so I could have 10 times your amount.

Here's another one. I'll find 7 more

OT claims sodomy to be a sin, and yet gay priests have been endorsed (or whatever) by the RCC. You might not be RCC, but the bible is the same. Surely it couldn't be ambigous now, could it?

Interesting list. I collected the ones where the NT quotations are different from the originals in the Hebrew Scriptures, so that I can do more study with them. “Mistranslation” might be a little harsh for most of them, as I think the authors (especially Matthew and Paul) were sometimes doing their own midrash, in which Jewish readers would have likely caught the differences—except that maybe Paul, brilliant midrashist that he sometimes was, forgot that gentile audiences wouldn’t?

Anyway, thanks: saved me a lot of research.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
So basically you are saying that because it has not happenned yet, and it is impossible to prove that it'll never happen (you can never prove that things will never happen), then it must be true?

I have nothing to hide about my 'sinfulness'. I don't believe in sin, because I'm not religious. I do believe in trying to treat people well though. I do ...[text shortened]... ference you'll ever make will be what you do in this world, so make the most of it.

It is not just about what is going to happen but also what has happened that has fulfilled prophecy. You say that you do not believe in sin but yet try to treat people well. Why? You also say that you have moral values but do not believe in sin. Why? For me sin is simply going against the moral values that you know to be true. It is therefore a matter of picking and choosing which moral values to live by. Do you live by your own and make them up as you go or do you live by the ones given to you by your creator? For me this is the only way to go. This is because I recognize my own selfish sinfull nature. If it were up to me, I would constantly change my moral code to fit my own needs and desires. This is why it says in the Bible that the love of money is the root of all evil. People are sinful and selfish. They will rationalize and lie and cheat and kill all because they love money. If they wrong you in the pursuit of money, they simply turn to you and tell you not to take it personally. Its only business. They love money because it affords them pleasure for themselves and power over others. As far as people teaching people to have an attitude that we should tolerate bad things is not the message that I get from the Bible. Not every thing that happens in the world is 'God's way'. For example, it says that it is God's will that none should perish but that all come to repentance. Problem is, not every one comes to repentance. Do I come across as someone who does not use his brain..........be nice now.

Originally posted by whodey
It is not just about what is going to happen but also what has happened that has fulfilled prophecy. You say that you do not believe in sin but yet try to treat people well. Why? You also say that you have moral values but do not believe in sin. Why? For me sin is simply going against the moral values that you know to be true. It is therefore a matter o ...[text shortened]... to repentance. Do I come across as someone who does not use his brain..........be nice now.

No, you don't come across as a stupid person, but occassionally one who will not listen to reason, even when we have copious evidence that backs it up.

I do not believe in sin, because I do not believe in god. I also do not believe that people are inherently bad, as you apparently do. I believe people are inherrently human. SOmetimes they make mistakes, and sometimes they do act in selfish ways, but generally people try to get along with their own lives. Sometimes they help others sometimes they don't. You don't need god for this. Chimpanzees have a similar hierarchal system where favours are traded without any concept of god.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
From what I can see, those 'evidences' are much like the ones in the opening post. So the bible is an almanac of information. There is no evidence though that it is gods word, because most of these things were discovered independantly by other cultures. If these evidences were so important and gave the Jews / proto-Christians as much of an advantage , if they were so uneducated compared to the proto-christians with their book of knowledge??

Why was the Roman empire the great empire that it was and not a christian empire. Many of his disciples probably were asking the same question. Some probably thought that the Messiah was come to overthrow the Roman Emipire of the day and establish the fortold Millenial reign. However, it was not God's time for that. Christ said that his kingdom was not of this earth. He said that the god of this world was Satan in fact. What he was referring to was the world system. The world system was and is based on one two things. Money and power. Brute force, in fact. The love of money is the root of all evil. This truth is self evident. Therefore, it is not about presenting evidence or truth for the world empires to see and convert. What do they care? All they are concerned about is themselves and enhancing their own selfish agenda's. God's kingdom, however, is not like this and not of this world. His kingdom is within those that are his. His kingdom extends over into all countries, races, and socioeconomic levels. His kingdom is about serving mankind as Christ did and being a light in the world for others to see. His kingdom is about doing his will on earth as Christ did while he was on earth. I know that I have struck out on my own and tried to do good on my own in the past. Both as a christian and a nonchristian. To be honest it was not very meaningful for me and the end result did not accomplish much. Have you ever heard the phrase the road to hell is paved with good intentions? I know because I have paved that road many times myself. However, when you combine God's will with your own you will get real results that can be life changing for yourself and for others around you.

Originally posted by genius
the modern church is in a terrible state. want a verse than contradicts the RCC appointing homosexual priests? 1 Corinthians 5:9-13

however, if that are meerly homosexual and have never actually had sexual relations with another man then this is fine. there is nothing wrong with this...

That's a bit hyppocritical isn't it?

In this situation, you say that thinking about a "sin" is OK as long as you don't carry it out.

But didn't Jesus say that anyone who is angry at someone has already committed murder in his heart?

Or better, any man who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
No, you don't come across as a stupid person, but [b]occassionally one who will not listen to reason, even when we have copious evidence that backs it up.

I do not believe in sin, because I do not believe in god. I also do not believe that people are inherently bad, as you apparently do. I believe people are inherrently human. SOmetimes they m ...[text shortened]... panzees have a similar hierarchal system where favours are traded without any concept of god.[/b]

So you don't believe in sin? Have you ever done something that you hate yourself for? In fact, you can't stop doing it? I know I have. Through Christ I was able to overcome it, however. Christ said that whoever commits sin is a servant of sin. He alone has the power to break sin within your life. I once held a similair perspective as you do. I thought to myself I am not so bad. Problem is that my perspective was skewed. I was thinking from the perspective of some one who was accustomed to sinning. The sins I was commiting did not seem all that bad. In fact, the more I sinned, the easier it became for me. Looking back I can see that this is because I familiarized myself with particular sins. The more I commited them the less guilt I felt for them. Lets take murder, for example. Hopefully you see this as a bad thing. I would call it a sin but you can call it making a mistake if you like. For me it would be a horrible guilt trip to think I had done such a thing. However, the more I continue doing it the less guilt I would probably have for doing it. This is because we have an innate conscience. When we go against our conscience, we are forced to develop other coping skills such as rationalization to cope with our guilt. Personally, I think this lends itself to other emotional and psychological disorders that we see today. I can only speak for myself. Through Christ I have been set free. I have peace of mind and love in my heart for others that I have never had before. I cannot explain it or give you an equation for it. You are correct in that you can live your life out without God. I am just glad I never gave myself the oppurtunity to do so.

Originally posted by whodey
When we go against our conscience, we are forced to develop other coping skills such as rationalization to cope with our guilt. Personally, I think this lends itself to other emotional and psychological disorders that we see today.

I'll be sure to add "rationalization" to the list of factors promoting psychological disorders.

Thanks.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
So what? The bible was a bit of an almanac that kept alot of information together... What HAVE you proved there?

btw the earliest complete written old testament didn't come around (in Hebrew) until 900 AD.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html

QUOTE "The earliest complete copy of the Hebrew Old Testament dates from c. 900 A.D." t the bible since even the oldest documents wouldn't be written for another 400 years.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I resent the bible because it teaches people to have the attitude that we can and should tolerate bad things happening in the world because it's 'god's way'.

Where do you get this? I can think of maybe a dozen verses that directly contradict this.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
btw the earliest complete written old testament didn't come around (in Hebrew) until 900 AD.

I’ve come to believe that one can get the internet to say anything he/she wants it to say with a good google search. Here is the link that I used.

http://www.robotwisdom.com/jaj/bible.html

Originally posted by scottishinnz
The question is, 'how, under god, could the modern church get into this state?' How could god, with all the fore knowledge that he (supposedly) has, allow this state of affairs to come to pass? Especially when the entire universe is under his control and he can change anything, or could have created anything in any way he'd like it.

It’s funny that you should ask a question like that. It’s people like you who try to drive a wedge between Christians and their faith, and then somehow it is “God’s fault” that some of them falter.

God has given us free will. That’s just how great he is. God doesn’t believe in dictatorships. If you don’t understand the implications of this I’ll be happy to discuss them with you.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that you can NEVER beat a die hard christian (DHC) with factual arguments.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Albert Einstein.

"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure."
Albert Einstein

There are many scientists who are also theists. Science and religion don’t necessarily have to oppose one another.

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Some evidence is not found in the laboratory, it’s found in the heart.

Originally posted by whodey
As far as loving the Lord with all your heart, if you do this you will keep all the commandments without trying. This is because if you love someone, you will try to do what pleases them. Even though it may be difficult, it is not burdensome.

This is probably one of the best proofs, this and the proof that God gives those who believe.

Most of the verses in the scripture have to do with morality. With the way the scientists and politicians have made the world it would be nice if people just listened to their scripture.

Matt 22:37-39 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

If people rejected everything that religion/spirituality has to offer and just followed this one little passage, the world would be a much better place.

Originally posted by whodey
So you don't believe in sin? Have you ever done something that you hate yourself for? In fact, you can't stop doing it? I know I have. Through Christ I was able to overcome it, however. Christ said that whoever commits sin is a servant of sin. He alone has the power to break sin within your life. I once held a similair perspective as you do. I thought ...[text shortened]... live your life out without God. I am just glad I never gave myself the oppurtunity to do so.

I was brought up by parents that taught me the differences between right and wrong. I can feel guilt, but I don't feel it every time I break some commandment. I feel it when I realise that my actions have hurt another person. Roman children would have been brought up with a different set of morals of right and wrong, the same way that Japanese children are brought up with different values. None of which makes them, or me, any more or less moralistic. We just follow different rules. In my case they are the rules I was taught by my parents and the ones I worked out by myself. I don't need a god to tell me when my actions are likely to hurt others. Basically, I'd say that this makes me more, not less, moral, since I have reached those conclusions by myself without having them spelled out with the threat of eternal damnation if I break them. I do morals for me.

Originally posted by whodey
Why was the Roman empire the great empire that it was and not a christian empire. Many of his disciples probably were asking the same question. Some probably thought that the Messiah was come to overthrow the Roman Emipire of the day and establish the fortold Millenial reign. However, it was not God's time for that. Christ said that his kingdom was not of ...[text shortened]... you will get real results that can be life changing for yourself and for others around you.

Now, you're perhaps misunderstanding me. I am not talking about Jesus or god or anything of that ilk. The assertion from CHess Express is that the bible (he claims written pre-500 BC, and hence pre-roman empire) contained knowledge and ideas that would prevent disease, and give the reader a knowledge of the world and wider universe greater than any other group. The question has to be, at that point, why did these selected people, allegedly wiser and more knowledgeable get conquered by the 'savages' (i.e. romans)?