12 Apr 14
2 edits
Originally posted by moonbusThanks for the comment.
A knotty theological problem. There were two schools of thought, historically:
1) Christ's sacrifice cleansed mankind of sin, collectively, once and for all time.
2) Christ's sacrifice reset the counter to zero at that time, but mankind continue to need redemption in each and every generation. Hence, the continuing need for the Body of Christ in the Wo ...[text shortened]... ankind (part of his corrupt nature, as a result of the fall of Adam). Both sides agreed on that.
This:
Be careful which side you take. I'll give you a clue: one side was denounced as heretical, and heretics don't get to heaven.
.. is nonsense. There is no man or manmade organisation who can decide who gets into Gods Kingdom.
If sinfulness is a general tendency of mankind as you rightly state, and if you also tell sinful man that Christ covers all his sins and his sins would not count against him, is that not in your opinion an encouragement for the man to continue on sinning?
12 Apr 14
Originally posted by yoctobyteI notice you keep avoiding my question. Here it is again :
Well actually English is my first language. 😛, The problem is we (you and I) are like a radio transmitter and receiver, we are just not on the same frequency!
A Christian accepts Christ and the pastor proclaims that HE IS SAVED ..HALLELUJAH. .PRAISE THE LORD !! The man proceeds to live a sinful lifestyle to the day he dies.
Do you think that this verse could apply to him?
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
Who does that passage apply to?
12 Apr 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Being saved does not mean that one does not sin anymore; it means that one is forgiven one's sinfulness. This does not mean that it is 'OK' to continue sinning.
I notice you keep avoiding my question. Here it is again :
A Christian accepts Christ and the pastor proclaims that HE IS SAVED ..HALLELUJAH. .PRAISE THE LORD !! The man proceeds to live a sinful lifestyle to the day he dies.
Do you think that this verse could apply to him?
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tast ...[text shortened]... h, and put him to an open shame.
(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
Who does that passage apply to?
12 Apr 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Do you only act morally because you fear punishment? If so, then you won't see any difference between the two statements. If not, then you should see an obvious difference.
2. It is ok for those who belong to Christ to sin.
To me both statements sound like a 'get-away-from-sin free card'.
12 Apr 14
Originally posted by moonbusOk thanks for that. Lets deal with this part first where you said
Being saved does not mean that one does not sin anymore; it means that one is forgiven one's sinfulness. This does not mean that it is 'OK' to continue sinning.
it means that one is forgiven one's sinfulness.
Is that in keeping with the passage from Heb 6 which I quoted?
12 Apr 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Regardless of what the pastor says, there has to be a change in the mans heart which is evidenced by how he then lives his life. If there is no change, eg. a turning from sin then one has to wonder what experience he had. I would say in that case the scripture you gave may not apply, because he received nothing except for some words that a man spoke.
I notice you keep avoiding my question. Here it is again :
A Christian accepts Christ and the pastor proclaims that HE IS SAVED ..HALLELUJAH. .PRAISE THE LORD !! The man proceeds to live a sinful lifestyle to the day he dies.
Do you think that this verse could apply to him?
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tast ...[text shortened]... h, and put him to an open shame.
(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
Who does that passage apply to?
For the second part of your, that scripture would apply to someone who was once enlightened and chose to return to a life outside of God, eg. sinful life.
My turn, please answer your own question above as if I asked it of you so I know what you believe. Thanks
12 Apr 14
2 edits
"There is no man or manmade organisation who can decide who gets into God's Kingdom."
The doctrine is clear on this point: getting into heaven depends solely upon God's grace.
"If sinfulness is a general tendency of mankind ... and if you also tell sinful man that Christ covers all his sins and his sins would not count against him, is that not in your opinion an encouragement for the man to continue on sinning?"
Again, the doctrine is clear on this point: men will continue sinning, they need no encouragement to do so, it is in their nature. The point is that every Christian should earnestly repent of his sinfulness, atone for it, and, in so far as it is within his strength, struggle against it. It is the atonement which matters, since any 'result' (i.e., good works) is bound to be insufficient.
I'm not sure what you mean by sins being "covered." It surely cannot mean that they are erased or undone, as if they never happened.
12 Apr 14
Originally posted by yoctobyteYou answerd correctly as I would have.
Regardless of what the pastor says, there has to be a change in the mans heart which is evidenced by how he then lives his life. If there is no change, eg. a turning from sin then one has to wonder what experience he had. I would say in that case the scripture you gave may not apply, because he received nothing except for some words that a man spoke.
...[text shortened]... lease answer your own question above as if I asked it of you so I know what you believe. Thanks
The point about all of this is:
1. Pastors and preachers are very wrong to tell Christians are saved, simply because this is something they do not know for sure.
2. Change in heart is only known to God [and the man himself], and the proof that there is a change of heart is the good works from the Christian.
3. The claim that ALL sin is forgiven is incorrect. Heb 6 obviously says otherwise and you agree to this. There comes a point when the man has crossed some line [known only to God], beyond which there is no more forgiveness.
12 Apr 14
1 edit
Originally posted by moonbusI like your responses so far. They are spot on. However you keep ignoring Heb 6 4-6. That passages is saying that there is a point beyond which God will refuse to forgive the follower of Christ if he falls away. I dont know exactly when that happens. Only God knows.
"There is no man or manmade organisation who can decide who gets into God's Kingdom."
The doctrine is clear on this point: getting into heaven depends solely upon God's grace.
"If sinfulness is a general tendency of mankind ... and if you also tell sinful man that Christ covers all his sins and his sins would not count against him, is that not in your ...[text shortened]... the atonement which matters, since any 'result' (i.e., good works) is bound to be insufficient.
This is the reason why it is a dangerous practice that churches have to tell people that all sin is forgiven. The Bible is not saying that at all.
12 Apr 14
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm not familiar with Heb 6:4-6. I'll have a look at it this w/e and get back to you.
I like your responses so far. They are spot on. However you keep ignoring Heb 6 4-6. That passages is saying that there is a point beyond which God will refuse to forgive the follower of Christ if he falls away. I dont know exactly when that happens. Only God knows.
This is the reason why it is a dangerous practice that churches have to tell people that all sin is forgiven. The Bible is not saying that at all.
As a general thing, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on a single passage. I try to understand these things in a larger historical context, when it was composed, what message the passage was to trying communicate, in what mode (poesy, prophecy, admonition, reverence, etc. etc.), to whom the passage would have been addressed, etc.
12 Apr 14
Originally posted by moonbusThe principle in that passage is stated several times in the writings of the Apostles. I will try to get the others so that you can check into them all at once.
I'm not familiar with Heb 6:4-6. I'll have a look at it this w/e and get back to you.
As a general thing, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on a single passage. I try to understand these things in a larger historical context, when it was composed, what message the passage was to trying communicate, in what mode (poesy, prophecy, admonition, reverence, etc. etc.), to whom the passage would have been addressed, etc.
I am familiar with the argument against the idea of 'losing ones salvation' which some say is not possible. So please dont quote websites or provide long cut and pastes. Some original thinking [of which Im sure you are capable] would be refreshhing.
12 Apr 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Then you should not interpret the statements equally. The first statement says certain people will not be punished for sin, the second implies it is morally acceptable for them to sin.
No. I do it because it is the right thing to do.
So yes, the difference in meaning is significant.
12 Apr 14
1 edit
Here they are Moonbus:
1. ... if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Hebrews 10:38 KJV)
2. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Pet 2:20-21)
3. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23 KJV)
4. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Hebrews 10:26 KJV)
5. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)