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What is more to the point and easy to overlook or take for granted is this.
When we Christians turn our hearts to the Lord Jesus we are caught away from the old nature and contact Him instantly.
When we turn by calling or setting on the regenerated spirit, we are cuaght away and caught up spiritually to the Lord. One day that spiritual being caught up will translated to a spiritual and physical sweeping away from the earth.
Now in the past Jesus has had many so-called giants of the faith who were probably ready to go up to Him like Enoch. We may view them as spiritual giants of the past.
But God does not just want individual spiritual giants who left inspiring biographies. He will at the close of the age make the particular readiness apply to many saints.
1.) First to those who voluntarily of conscience want to consecrate their moment by moment living to Jesus as overcoming - "more than conquerors" (Rom. 8:37) .
2.) Those who procrastinated and loved the world or were not shepherded or for some reason are left in the first rapture, follow latter. Then the circumstances thrust upon them by the world wide trial gives them the incentive to grow with "the growth of God" (Col. 2:19) and taken up at the end of that trial.
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We cannot disassociate the whole matter of rapture with abiding in Christ, living unto Christ, lingering and logging more and more time in His presence.
It is a mistake to only consider a physical aspect of rapture.
"Remember Lot's wife" (Luke 17:32)
It was not good enough to God that she PHYSICALLY was removed from Sodom.
It was more important to God that her HEART had been removed to the point of no betraying backward longing glance at that world.
"Remember Lot's wife" said the Lord as He spoke of some saints being suddenly swept up. Here is where the rubber really meets the road. We have to learn to enjoy Christ and live unto Christ serving Him.
@kingdavid403 saidI still haven't worked out what happened to Enoch?
Nothing there about Abraham or any names of saints. Many of the saints rose from the dead Yes, but you dont know who. Paul said nobody has ascended to heaven except Christ.
[2Kings 2:11 NKJV]
11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire [appeared] with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
@sonship said[Rev 12:7, 9-12 NKJV] 7 "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, ... 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."Are they still waiting for another rapture and resurrection?
I don't know. I think they are probably best associated in principle with the Manchild - deceased overcomers.
God does not want naked souls in heaven.
I have no indication that they received glorified bodies yet.
Perhaps they did.
And I would not be surprised if God has som ...[text shortened]... ercomers and the living overcomers at the time of Christ's parousia.
There I go again ! Sorry.
I don't see anything that you are talking about in these verses. Please explain manchild? Or show me a verse where this manchild is written about?
Manchild sure sounds like Trump to me. I wonder if he has recovered from his ego (head wound) yet; since he lost the election. However, that would be another topic.
In Revelation 14 the first fruits spoken of there say that they are all virgins with no deceit in their mouths. I'm not a virgin as I have four daughters; and, believe it or not, I have lied before. I guess that counts me out; don't you think?
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I respect your honesty.
If they did not die again; then they are with the Lord Jesus one way or another with eternal life. It all "Panned Out" for them; All thanks to Jesus. lol... 😉
And I respect yours in turn.
Now poor Rajk999 has reactions. It seems when anyone speaks of confidence in Jesus Christ, trust in Jesus Christ, relying ON Jesus Christ, and hope in Jesus Christ, Rajk999 practically immediately hones in to point you to YOUR effort - what YOU need to do.
This is strange.
As soon as he detects one has confidence on Christ he jumps to remind you that YOU have to do this or that to earn eternal life.
To this poor man TRUST in Jesus Christ the Lord can only mean neglect of responsibility.
To Rajk999 confidence in the finished work of Christ can only mean license to disobey the commandments of Christ. His reactions seem to imply faith is vain for justification.
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To have Christ is the have THE life. And THE life is eternal life.
"And this is the testimony, that God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does noit have the life." (1 John 5:11,12)
Now Apostle John, WHY did you write this to us? What was your purpose in telling us this as Christians? We have all kinds of brothers and sisters here - some immature and some mature. Some defeated and some overcoming. Some normal and some abnormal. WHY John did you write this to us ?
"I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (v.13)
This has not to do with the reward of the kingdom. This has to do with the GIFT of eternal life. If we have the Son of God WE HAVE THE GIFT . . . . PERIOD.
@medullah saidNor have I. 🙂 Christian tradition teaches us that he was taken up in a whirlwind of fire also. However, there is no scripture that I have found that suggests that.
I still haven't worked out what happened to Enoch?
@sonship saidYes, he has a problem understanding the whole Faith and Works thing; and how, they actually go together and cannot be separated.
@KingDavid403I respect your honesty.
If they did not die again; then they are with the Lord Jesus one way or another with eternal life. It all "Panned Out" for them; All thanks to Jesus. lol... 😉
And I respect your in turn.
Now poor Rajk999 has reactions. It seems when anyone speaks of confidence in Jesus Christ, trust in Jesus Christ, relying ON ...[text shortened]... to disobey the commandments of Christ. His reactions seem to imply faith is vain for justification.
@sonship saidI'll wait until you answer my questions on Revelation 12 and 14. I'm getting ahead of you.
To have Christ is the have THE life. And THE life is eternal life.
"And this is the testimony, that God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does noit have the life." (1 John 5:11,12)
Now Apostle John, WHY did you write this to us? What was your purpose in telling us thi ...[text shortened]... do with the GIFT of eternal life. If we have the Son of God WE HAVE THE GIFT . . . . PERIOD.
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@KingDavid403
What happened to Enoch is what is going to happen to some of us.
If we walk with God, all of a sudden, we will not be found.
It could happen in our lifetime.
Like Enoch we have the incentive of realizing that the wrath of God is just about to be poured out on this world in judgment.
First the calamities which science can understand somewhat.
Then the calamities of a supernatural sort that science cannot explain.
This taking of Enoch also will be a sign to the world and testimony of God's approval of his faith and his godly walking.
"By faith Enoch was translated . . . and he was not found, because God translated him.
"For before his translation . . . "
BEFORE his translation, that is.
"For before his translation he obtained the testimony that he had been well pleasing to God." (Heb 11:5)
Of course on the way he was probably by some scoffers mocked, called a charlatan, cultist, enemy of the world citizenship, religious fanatic, etc. etc.
@sonship said7 posts ago.
@KingDavid403
I'll wait until you answer my questions on Revelation 12 and 14. I'm getting ahead of you.
I am stepping out for a bit.
Please briefly recap or remind me until I can see if a post I missed.
What about 12 and 14 did you request explanation ? Briefly ?
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@kingdavid403 saidI see this post now.
[Rev 12:7, 9-12 NKJV] 7 "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, ... 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "No ...[text shortened]... daughters; and, believe it or not, I have lied before. I guess that counts me out; don't you think?
I will try to reply after a period of being away.
@kingdavid403 saidDid not Revelation also say that the 144,000 were all Jews who were descendants of Jacob and of the 12 tribes of Israel. Did you miss that ?
[Rev 12:7, 9-12 NKJV] 7 "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, ... 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "No ...[text shortened]... daughters; and, believe it or not, I have lied before. I guess that counts me out; don't you think?