@medullah saidI dont see the need to work that out. The bible says enough.
I still haven't worked out what happened to Enoch?
He was righteous man who walked with God
He was taken / translated.
He did not see death.
He was a prophet.
I would think that the writings attributed to him would also shed light on many mysteries, and where he is now is not relevant.
@medullah saidLong after many Christians died Paul said that no man has ascended to heaven except for Christ. There are several levels of heaven and the one to which Paul refers must have been the abode of God where Christ sits on his right hand. Nobody goes there. The soul of the righteous go to a place of rest while the soul of the evil goes to a place of torment as illustrated in the Rich Man and Lazarus story told by Christ. But that place of rest is not necessarily heaven. I dont know where it is.
@Rajk999
Those that died before Christ are of the earthly calling. Even John the Baptist didn't go to heaven.
Paul said he was caught up to the 3rd heaven which apparently was paradise. The Jewish literature described 7 levels of heaven and some of these readings Im pretty sure were inspired by God. The books of the bible are not the only inspired ones.
@rajk999 saidThe books of the bible are not the only inspired ones.
Long after many Christians died Paul said that no man has ascended to heaven except for Christ. There are several levels of heaven and the one to which Paul refers must have been the abode of God where Christ sits on his right hand. Nobody goes there. The soul of the righteous go to a place of rest while the soul of the evil goes to a place of torment as illustrated in the ...[text shortened]... readings Im pretty sure were inspired by God. The books of the bible are not the only inspired ones.
I agree. The question is, who are the books inspired by when they are not Scriptural teachings from the Bible.
I greatly question your 7 levels of heaven theory; also, I question your theory of Paul being in a third heaven.
Please share your books names and authors; or the Jewish writings that you are talking about.
Don't get me wrong; there are many supposed Christians that I hope that I end up at least six levels of heaven away from them. But hey, at least they made it huh. 🙂
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I don't see anything that you are talking about in these verses. Please explain manchild? Or show me a verse where this manchild is written about?
You quoted some of where it is written about.
Who do you think the plural pronouns refer to in these sentences?
"And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THEIR testimony, and THEY loved not THEIR soul-life even unto death."
"THEY, THEIR, THEY, THEIR" refer to the manchild.
1.) Do Michael and his good angels require "the blood of the Lamb" ?
Answer: No but redeemed humans do.
2.) Do Michael and his angels have some testimony that they give forth word to?
Answer: Maybe. But much more so the redeemed human believers speak forth the word of their testimony.
3.) Do the angels die so that it could be said "they loved not their soul-life even unto DEATH" ?
Answer: NO. Denying the soul-life, denying the self to follow the Lord Jesus "even unto death" is characteristic not of angelic beings but of redeemed humans.
The Manchild is therefore a COLLECTIVE, a CORPORATE entity.
Michael and his angels are servants of the human saints of God. "Are they [angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14)
The good angels fight the bad angels because the good angels are performing their service, serving those humans who are to inherit salvation.
As for the humans whom they serve, the overcoming ones are "partners" with the original Overcomer the Son of God. They PARTNER with Him in His victory.
"But of the Son . . . therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your PARTNERS" (Hebrews 1:9)
Again in Hebrews - "For we have become PARTNERS of Christ, if indeed we hold fast the beginning of the assurance firm to the end." (Heb. 3:14)
And again in First Peter - "But inasmuch as you share in the sufferings of the Christ, rejoice, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice exultantly." (1 Pet. 4:13) .
Look how the he who overcomes also does what Christ does in the millennium.
What Christ does - "He might smite the nations . . . and He [Christ] will shepherd them with an iron rod."
What he who overcomes does like Him - "And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces." (Rev. 2:26,27)
So first you must see that the overcoming saints are symbolized by the manchild to resurrect and rapture as PARTNERS with Christ through Whom they have overcome.
"And she [the universally bright woman of the totality of God's people] brought forth a son, a manchild, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up [raptured] to God and to His throne.." (Rev. 12:5)
For length's sake I stop here. The manchild is the collective THEY who overcame through the blood, the word, and the self denial and are to co-reign over the nations with Christ.
In Revelation 14 the first fruits spoken of there say that they are all virgins with no deceit in their mouths. I'm not a virgin as I have four daughters; and, believe it or not, I have lied before. I guess that counts me out; don't you think?
I too am married with children. Examining the entire New Testament, this group I think is representative. It should not mean that only virgin men can be raptured pre-tribulation. So you should not let the details of these Firstfruits make you feel excluded from the possibility of being raptured - Enoch style because of following the Lamb.
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In Revelation 14 the first fruits spoken of there say that they are all virgins with no deceit in their mouths. I'm not a virgin as I have four daughters; and, believe it or not, I have lied before. I guess that counts me out; don't you think?
However, IF they were purchased from the earth, this means they were redeemed. So being redeemed has to mean they are not of themselves perfectly righteous.
We have all lied and exaggerated even as Christians. But if we are CONFESSED UP and current on all of our confession of known sins it is as if no lie is found in our mouths.
I am not completely sure of this today. But excluding women would not be consistent that "two women" were grinding at the mill and one was taken.
So I would admit the details seem to eliminate many of us. HOWEVER, a pre-tribulation rapture of those watching and vigilant is spoken in terms of both men and women in Matthew 24 and Luke 17.
Do not say you cannot be one to follow the Lamb wherever He may go and suddenly be FOUND standing in heaven where Christ is before His descent to the earth.
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Alert.
Now I WILL cut and paste something from "The Glorious Church" by Watchman Nee. This helps to understand the relationship and distinction of the manchild and the bright Woman who gives birth to this raptured child.
(1) The woman was clothed with the sun. The sun refers to the Lord Jesus. Her being clothed with the sun means that when the sun shines the brightest, it is shining upon her. In this present age, God is revealing Himself through her. This shows her relationship with Christ and the age of grace.
(2) The woman had the moon underneath her feet. This phrase "underneath her feet" does not mean that she is treading upon it. According to the Greek, it means that the moon is subject at her feet. The light of the moon is a reflecting light; it has no light of its own. All the things in the age of the law merely reflected the things in the age of grace. The law was but a type. The temple and the ark were types. The incense, the showbread in the Holy Place, and the sacrifices offered by the priests were all types, as well as the blood of the sheep and oxen. The moon underneath the feet of the woman means that all things pertaining to the law are subordinate to her. This speaks of her relationship to the age of the law.
(3) The woman had a crown of twelve stars upon her head. The chief figures in the age of the patriarchs were from the time of Abraham to the twelve tribes. The crown of twelve stars upon her head speaks of her relationship to the age of the patriarchs.
Verse 5 says, "And she brought forth a son, a man-child." In order to see the relationship between the woman and the man-child, let us look at Galatians 4:26: "But the Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother." The last part of Galatians 4:27 says, "Because many are the children of her who is desolate rather than of her who has her husband." The Jerusalem that is above is the New Jerusalem, and the New Jerusalem is the woman, the goal which God desires to obtain in eternity. The woman in creation is Eve, the woman in the age of grace is the Body of Christ, the woman at the end of the age of grace is described in Revelation 12, and the woman in eternity future will be the New Jerusalem. When the Word says that the Jerusalem which is above has many children, it does not mean that the mother and the children are separate. It means that one has become many, and many are composed into one. The many children added together equal the mother. It is not as if the mother delivers five children, and then there are six individuals, but that the five children added together compose the mother. Each child is a portion of the mother—one portion of the mother is taken out for this child, another portion is taken out for another child, and so for each one. It seems as if they are all born of her, but in fact they are herself. The mother is not another being in addition to the children; she is the summation of all the children. When we look at the whole, we see the mother; when we look at them one by one, we see the children. When we look at the totality of the people in God's purpose, we see the woman; if we look at them separately, we see many sons. This is a special principle.
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
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@sonship saidSo, you have no Biblical scriptures on this 'Manchild'; other than "THEY, THEIR, THEY, THEIR" refer to the manchild according to you, or your Christian sect; correct? Feel free to clarify if you wish.
@KingDavid403
I don't see anything that you are talking about in these verses. Please explain manchild? Or show me a verse where this manchild is written about?
You quoted some of where it is written about.
Who do you think the plural pronouns refer to in these sentences?
"And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and ...[text shortened]... excluded from the possibility of being raptured -[b] Enoch style because of following the Lamb.
Some of what you say I agree with; some I do not.
The anti-Christ will certainly receive hugh backings from corporate entities; or, have his own world controlling entity. That much I agree about.
Other than that, everything that you have written here is no more than a theory; at this time anyway.
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So, you have no Biblical scriptures on this 'Manchild'; other than "THEY, THEIR, THEY, THEIR" refer to the manchild according to you, or your Christian sect; correct? Feel free to clarify if you wish.
How about you read ch. 12 and suggest who you think is being referred to in verses 10 - 12. I offered you some logical reasons that those verses refer to the manchild.
Please offer your view as to who is being spoken about there.
I might then ask you a few questions. Can it hurt ?
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So, you have no Biblical scriptures on this 'Manchild'; other than "THEY, THEIR, THEY, THEIR" refer to the manchild according to you, or your Christian sect; correct? Feel free to clarify if you wish.
I welcome to hear anyone else's alternative serious interpretation of what the manchild would signify in Revelation 12. ( I said serious ).
I hope in turn you will allow me to closely examine your logic.
Who knows? Maybe I'll have to admit you have a better case.
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@sonship saidWhy not just revisit Psalm 2:7–9 and infer the obvious (Jesus) parallel with Rev 12?
I welcome to hear anyone else's alternative serious interpretation of what the manchild would signify in Revelation 12. ( I said serious ).
I hope in turn you will allow me to closely examine your logic.
Who knows? Maybe I'll have to admit you have a better case.
"...and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will break them with a rod of iron, you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
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The poster points out Psalm 2:7-9 quite explicitly speaks of God's Son as the one who will shepherd the nations with a rod of iron.
I referred to an equivalent New Testament passage essentially when I wrote but neglected to give reference to Rev. 19:15.
Reproduced with some editing below.
Look how the ["he who overcomes"] also does what Christ does in the millennium.
What Christ does - "He might smite the nations . . . and He [Christ] will shepherd them with an iron rod."
This is Rev. 19:15 showing Christ fulfilling that word rightly pointed out which says the same thing in Psalm 2:8,9
So then why not just interpret that the manchild of Rev. 12 is SIMPLY JESUS CHRIST ?
It is Jesus Christ. But it is not simply Jesus Christ ALONE. It is Jesus Christ heading up a group of people attached to Him who have been filled with His complete salvation.
I will prove it subsequently.
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So then why not just interpret that the manchild of Rev. 12 is SIMPLY JESUS CHRIST ?
It is Jesus Christ. But it is not simply Jesus Christ ALONE. It is Jesus Christ heading up a group of people attached to Him who have been filled with His complete salvation.
Now let's examine why the manchild should not be Jesus Christ Solely and Alone but Jesus Christ as the Head of little Gideon like size army of overcomers.
(That is relatively smaller than the entire body of God's redeemed people).
Jesus was born of Mary. But He was not immediately caught up to God's throne in heaven. The manchild is raptured IMMEDIATELY upon being born.
"And she brought forth a son, a manchild, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." (Rev. 12:5)
Jesus was born and lived thirty three and a half years before He ascended to the right hand of the throne of God in heaven.
Mary the mother of Jesus did flee away with Joseph out of Judea. But she took the baby Jesus WITH them.
She did go to Egypt. You may say "Egypt is the wilderness." But the period of time she was there I don't think was "a thousand and two hundred and sixty days."
"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days." (v.6)
The interpretation that the woman is Mary may make Roman Catholics happy because they make too much of Mary. But the symbolism about the woman would be too much attention to Mary.
Rather the thousand and two hundred and sixty days." is the half of seven years by the Hebrew calendar. A better interpretation is that the time span refers to the "seventieth week of Daniel" the last HALF of that "week" of seven years. This is the time of "Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7; Dan. 12:1) or the great tribulation.
So the catching up to the throne of God should be the rapture of someone/s just prior to the last three and one half years of this age - the great tribulation.
There are more reasons why the individual Christ should not be the best interpretation of the manchild.
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@sonship said[Rev 12:10-12 NKJV] 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
@KingDavid403
So, you have no Biblical scriptures on this 'Manchild'; other than "THEY, THEIR, THEY, THEIR" refer to the manchild according to you, or your Christian sect; correct? Feel free to clarify if you wish.
How about you read ch. 12 and suggest who you think is being referred to in verses 10 - 12. I offered you some logical re ...[text shortened]... iew as to who is being spoken about there.
I might then ask you a few questions. Can it hurt ?
How about you read ch. 12 and suggest who you think is being referred to in verses 10 - 12.
Well, It talks about Satan being cast out of heaven and down to Earth; it also talks about some saints from somewhere that overcame Satan. I see nothing of this corporate manchild that you speak of.
I might then ask you a few questions. Can it hurt ?
Feel free.
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Jesus was the firstborn child of the woman Mary. Revelation 12 says that the dragon went to make war with the REST of the woman's children.
"And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. " (v.13)
"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed . . . " (v.17a)
Mary didn't have the siblings of her firstborn son Jesus while in Egypt.
Actually the way it reads it seems that "the rest of her seed" would be OLDER children than the man-child baby she brought forth. But if it is Jesus, there were not "rest of her seed" yet born. He was the oldest.
It says "the rest of her seed" keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus."
But Jesus didn't accomplish His full testimony of life, death, and resurrection while Mary was off hiding in Egypt as any supposed wilderness. The full "testimony of Jesus" is better thought of as having been accomplished thirty three and one half years AFTER Jesus was born.
The individual Jesus is not the best interpretation of Revelation 12's man-child. But it is close.
26 Sep 21
@sonship saidWhat about the firstborn child of Eve?
Jesus was the firstborn child of the woman Mary. Revelation 12 says that the dragon went to make war with the REST of the woman's children.
"And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. " (v.13)
"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her see ...[text shortened]... dividual Jesus is not the best interpretation of [b]Revelation 12's man-child. But it is close.