@sonship saidThere are NO saints overcoming, in heaven in Rev 12, verses 9, 10 and 11 as you suggest. Those overcoming Satan is Michael and His Angels [v 7] who cast him out of heaven and down to the Earth.
@KingDavid403
Concerning Rev. 12:10,11 you said -
I already told you that a couple posts ago. They are all the saints that are saved by Jesus from around the world.
But the ones mentioned in verses 10,11 have overcome, but the saints around the world on earth are BEING overcome under the fierce persecutions of the beast in 13:5- ...[text shortened]... [b]Rev. 12:10,11 only refers to a portion of all the saints saved by Jesus, then WHO are they ?
That is a very serious addition you are making to the bible by stating that the Saints in Christ are the ones who are fight Satan in Heaven
@rajk999 saidBelieve as you wish; also liar, I made no addition to God's Holy Word anywhere in my statement. It is not my, or anyone else's fault, that you choose not to comprehend statements made here; and then, of course, you twist things and lie about what others said here.
There are NO saints overcoming, in heaven in Rev 12, verses 9, 10 and 11 as you suggest. Those overcoming Satan is Michael and His Angels [v 7] who cast him out of heaven and down to the Earth.
That is a very serious addition you are making to the bible by stating that the Saints in Christ are the ones who are fight Satan in Heaven
Have a good nite liar boy; 😉 I'll pray for you that God will make you a real Christian some day. 🙂 Nite nite liar boy. 😏
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Rajk999 objects to human overcomers being raptured to heaven.
There are NO saints overcoming, in heaven in Rev 12, verses 9, 10 and 11 as you suggest. Those overcoming Satan is Michael and His Angels [v 7] who cast him out of heaven and down to the Earth.
That is a very serious addition you are making to the bible by stating that the Saints in Christ are the ones who are fight Satan in Heaven
Those who are said to have overcome Satan did so by "the blood of the Lamb". "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb . . . " (v.11)
Christ shed His blood on Calvary not for angels but for human beings.
The good angels have not committed sins and are not recipients of Christ's death for them for redemption.
Sons of Adam as fallen sinners are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.
That you cannot discern this is telling that perhaps it is not a reality that you
personally know.
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The ones who overcame in verses 10,11 also did so by not loving their soul (self) unto death. The strong implication is that they DIED for Christ's sake rather than pamper their self centered souls.
Angels good or bad do not die in this fashion. This further suggests that the ones overcoming are humans and not Michael and his good angels.
When you say the saints do not fight against the Devil and his angels you are only partially right but more significantly wrong.
Paul says the saints wrestle with spiritual forces in the heavenlies.
"Finally, be empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength. Put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the stratagems of the devil,
For our wrestling is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the authorities, a against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces in the heavenlies." (Eph. 6:11,12)
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Rajk999
Whence come you babbling nonsense like saints in Christ are not the one battling Satan. This nonsense you speak because you have already been defeated by Satan in making you NOT receive the Lord Jesus. The fight for your heart to be given to Christ has you defeated.
To the believers in Christ - "Therefore take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, . . . " (v.13)
You are on the wrong side. So why come in here babbling in a totally deceived manner that the saints of Christ do not fight against the Devil?
Michael and his angels indeed serve the human saints as servants of those who are to inherit salvation. So it is true that WITHOUT the good angels the Christians could not defeat Satan.
In our prayer meetings we bind and command the evil forces and the good angels fight on our behalf.
" Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation? " (Heb. 1:14) .
The man-child is the spiritually STRONGER portion of the total Bright Woman of God's complete body of saints. Stronger not in themselves, but stronger in the enjoyment of Christ as their Victor.
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The man-child has its leading Head which is Christ.
After all, Christ was a man as well as God incarnate.
Christ is THE Original Overcomer, Resurrected One, Victor, Leader, our True Joshua.
So I would have to agree that the man-child represents Christ. But it could not represent solely Christ. Rather Christ and those into whom He has been dispensed to the point that He has duplicated His victory (as He should) in His believers.
He as a grain of wheat fell into the ground and died to produce many grains (much fruit) like Himself as a corporate expression of His life.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)
The man-child is the demonstration that a remnant among the whole body of the saved have reached normality, full maturing in loving Christ above their soul-life.
He had told all His followers - "Remember Lot's wife. Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive." (Luke 17:32,33)
The stronger component of the total body of the Woman of light are those who loved not their soul-life to follow the Lord in absoluteness.
Don't you and I, if we are Christians, want to be such also ?
@sonship saidSomething is really very wrong inside your head. My post dealt with your assumption that the saints in Christ are fighting Satan IN HEAVEN. This is what you were suggesting. That is wrong. Revelation 12 says
Rajk999 objects to human overcomers being raptured to heaven.
[quote] There are NO saints overcoming, in heaven in Rev 12, verses 9, 10 and 11 as you suggest. Those overcoming Satan is Michael and His Angels [v 7] who cast him out of heaven and down to the Earth.
That is a very serious addition you are making to the bible by stating that the Saints in Christ are the on ...[text shortened]... t you cannot discern this is telling that perhaps it is not a reality that you
personally know.
- Michael and the Angels defeated Satan in heaven
- Christ Saints were battling Satan on the Earth and defeated Satan with the assistance of the blood of Christ
Those are TWO SEPARATE EVENTS.
- One taking place in heaven
- Another separate event on Earth
You appear to be combining the two events. Witness Lee has a devious agenda behind twisting these passages, and is adding to the book of Revelation. A very grave error and a sin in which you also participate.
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Rajk999 objects.
Something is really very wrong inside your head. My post dealt with your assumption that the saints in Christ are fighting Satan IN HEAVEN. This is what you were suggesting. That is wrong. Revelation 12 says
The expulsion of the Devil and his angels COMMENCED upon the rapture of the man-child to God and to His throne. Look at the sequence.
Verse 5 "And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod, and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."
Following this:
Verse 7 "And there was war in heaven: "
WHERE was the war once the man-child was raptured ?
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven."
The reason the dragon has ever been before the Bright Woman was to insure that NO SUCH STRONGER component of her would ever come forth. Satan has fought God's people that they would ever remain weak, defeated, and powerless to arrest the rule of the planet from his evil hands.
He warred against Adam. He warred against Eve. He warred against Abel.
He warred against and defeated Cain the murderer of his brother Abel.
The battle has been for Satan to keep under his control what he arrested from the man created by God, to Satanic usurpation and control.
He did not get through with Enoch who walked with God and was taken.
God secures for Himself a COLLECTIVE Enoch from the saints throughout the ages who walked with God. Together this overcoming man-child, in SPITE of Satan's ever present opposition, will be brought forth STARTING with Jesus Christ in resurrection and exultation FOLLOWED by the corporate overcomers.
They have fought on earth.
When raptured the scales spiritual warfare are tilted to the side of man - the man infused and consecrated to Christ- filled with His divine life. And the serving angels who have ever resisted the Devil and his angels gain the upper hand.
This should be counted as the fighting of God's people against the fallen SELF which is a defeat for Satan who has injected himself into man's body.
"And they loved not their soul-life, even unto death"
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- Michael and the Angels defeated Satan in heaven
Read Daniel.
Read Joshua.
The good angels are servants of the people of God.
You were told but are blind to see it.
"But to which of the angels has He ever said, Sit at My right hand until I set Your enemies as a footstool for You feet? ARE THEY [ angels ] not all ministering spirits, SENT FORTH FOR SERVICE FOR THE SAKE OF THOSE WHO ARE TO INHERIT SALVATION" (Hebrews 1:13,14) [ my bolding].
The entire body of the Woman of light is to inherit salvation. But the majority of her is weaker. The STRONGER overcomers throughout the ages SPEARHEAD the inheriting of salvation and the RE-POSSESSION of the planet OUT of the hands of the usurper the Devil, back to the God-men according to God's original purpose.
Man was created to have dominion over the earth and express the deputy authority to God. (Gen. 1:26,27)
"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." (Gen. 1:26)
- Christ Saints were battling Satan on the Earth and defeated Satan with the assistance of the blood of Christ
The is right. They overcame through the redemption of Christ.
And through the word of their testimony, and through their denying the fallen soul-life in view of experiencing Christ living in them, leading them, guiding them instead.
The good angels are the serving servants to the God recovered human beings recovered back to His original eternal purpose in Gen. 1:26,27.
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Those are TWO SEPARATE EVENTS.
- One taking place in heaven
- Another separate event on Earth
They are not separate events in so that the saints FOUGHT with Devil while they lived on earth. Being victorious a remnant man-child is resurrected and raptured to take the FIGHT to the heaven, commanding the angels to serve them to drive down and out of Heaven the Devil once for all, now that overcoming God-men have arrived there.
It is as if the saints say - " Satan, we defeated you on the earth. And God has raptured us now to His throne in heaven. What are you still doing here coming before God to accuse His people like you appeared before God to accuse Job? We have overcome and God has set His seal by our being taken to Him like Enoch was taken. Get out of here. We command the angels who serve us to drive you and your accusing mouth OUT forever from coming before God. "
This is what causes Satan to be finally driven from roaming around in that sphere to accuse the church. He HAS to leave being vanquished. And the heavenly voice announces the victory that the kingdom is in the hands of the overcomers.
"And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night." (v.10)
@kingdavid403 saidI was addressing sonship, not you. Try to focus and keep up.
Believe as you wish; also liar, I made no addition to God's Holy Word anywhere in my statement. It is not my, or anyone else's fault, that you choose not to comprehend statements made here; and then, of course, you twist things and lie about what others said here.
Have a good nite liar boy; 😉 I'll pray for you that God will make you a real Christian some day. 🙂 Nite nite liar boy. 😏
@sonship saidBaloney
Rajk999 objects.
Something is really very wrong inside your head. My post dealt with your assumption that the saints in Christ are fighting Satan IN HEAVEN. This is what you were suggesting. That is wrong. Revelation 12 says
The expulsion of the Devil and his angels COMMENCED upon the rapture of the man-child to God and to His throne. ...[text shortened]... injected himself into man's body.
"And they loved not their soul-life, even unto death"
@sonship saidRevelation 12. No Saints fighting in heaven in that chapter.
Rajk999 objects.
Something is really very wrong inside your head. My post dealt with your assumption that the saints in Christ are fighting Satan IN HEAVEN. This is what you were suggesting. That is wrong. Revelation 12 says
The expulsion of the Devil and his angels COMMENCED upon the rapture of the man-child to God and to His throne. ...[text shortened]... injected himself into man's body.
"And they loved not their soul-life, even unto death"