Islam is a Scourge

Originally posted by Scriabin


It is the Muslim world that instigates, conducts and protects those who traffic in human lives -- more than 600,000 people a year are sold into sexual slavery

Soviets and Eastern Europeans share a great deal of the blame here, although I don't think they attempt to justify it by an appeal to God's will.

Originally posted by whodey
I may be insane but at least I am respectful. If being insane means being respecful of others opinions and beliefs then I will take insanity any day!!

🙄 over 😠

Again, you mistake me for someone who gives a damn.

Your respectfulness cannot hide your underlying evangelism.

I find that vexing.

And I don't believe in cultural or intellectual relativism. Not every thought, belief, culture or person is in fact the equal of all others.

All men may have been created equal, but somewhere along the line, growing up they either grew up or fell short.

I see no reason to respect beliefs that infringe on my rights -- again, what you say you believe in is constantly being advanced in this country to establish an intolerant and intolerable theocratic tyranny.

Not on my watch, I can tell you that.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
How many and what sort of sources do you want?

We have (1) the government of a Muslim country, (2) a editorialist in a major newspaper in a Muslim country, and (3) a Muslim community leader. These are all clearly prominent Muslims. (For if they weren't, how do you account for them continuing to hold the positions they do?)

The article I cited ...[text shortened]... o believe that honor killing is justified and also, but unrelatedly, just happen to be Muslim?

I( think honor killings are also a widespread problem among the Hindus of India.

Violence against women is a world wide problem that all men should take seriously.

It angers me very deeply, for the only child I have left is my daughter and I would lay down my life to save her from harm.

Needless to say, I would gladly and literally crush the throat of any man who tried to do her harm.

Only very weak men choose to use violence against women - weak minds, weak morals, and deserving of the utmost contempt.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Do you deny the quoted material from the three independent Muslim sources I cited, each saying that such honor killings are specifically related to Islam, designed to protect Muslim values, and thereby derive their justification?

I'm sorry, but non of your sources show what the source of their opinion. The only acceptable source for Islam is Quran and Hadith. If it is not there, then you can through it on the sea. It is nothing.

So if any one want to justify his own actions he will claim that his religion ask him to do so, but that is not true.

In Islamic law Death is the pelenty of some crimes, and we discussed some of them here before, and you gave your opinion without any explaination. But there is nothing called honor killing. Niether you nor your sources show a reference to their claims, and as far as I know there is nothing in Quran that support that (I memorize the whole book and I read more than 100 times). And as far as I know in Hadith there is nothing that support this claim.

You ask why they do that. It is simply because of the culture they inherited from pre Islamic period and still there. We try to ger rid of it in many places but there still trace of it.

Originally posted by Scriabin
[b]Again, you mistake me for someone who gives a damn.

No, not really because I have heard you say this over and over again, not only to me, but to others on this forum. Therefore, it is I who owe you an apology for telling you what I think despite this fact.

Originally posted by scherzo
He's never read the Qur'an. Don't listen to him. He has no idea what goes on outside of the so-called "Good Book," aka the Greatest Lie Ever Told, aka the Bible.

So you know ahosyney personally? Why are you making such judgements about a man you don't even know? Also, what does good does it do to disrespect him in such a way? If you want to know what he thinks, then ask. If you don't care to know what he thinks, then don't talk to him. However, if you enjoy belittling him endlessly then by all means continue.

Originally posted by whodey
So your are saying that there is no where in the Quran or Hadith that endorses such behavoir? If so, where did it come from and how is it then justified?

Ok,

In Islam there is a punishment for Adultery. And this punishment is the same for both man and woman. And to execute this punishment there a very restricted regulations should be performed so that any one could be accused of adultery. This include 4 witnesses that see the person under suspection doing the act which practically can't happen unless it is happening in public. In all cases in honour killing non of these regulations are performed. A small suspection is enough for a man to kill his daughter, and this never happen for a son if did the same actions. So comparing to the Islamic law. The man has no right to kill his daughter even if he saw her doing it.

But people who do that uses this as a justification to their actions. Exactly like any made person try to justify his disordered actions.

To make it more clearer, in pre Islamic period people used to kill their daughters when they are babies in the fear that they will dishonour them when they grow up. Quran clearly reject these actions in the following verses:

"(Nobel-Translation)(An-Nahl)(o 58 o)(58. And when the news of -the birth of- a female -child- is brought to any of them, his face becomes dark, and he is filled with inward grief!)

(Nobel-Translation)(An-Nahl)(o 59 o)(59. He hides himself from the people because of the evil of that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonour or bury her in the earth ? Certainly, evil is their decision.)"

So if Quran denies these actions while the girls is still a baby, how can it justify it later on when the girl grow up.

Many Muslims don't know about Islam, and that is the source of many problems we face today.

Originally posted by ahosyney
The only acceptable source for Islam is Quran and Hadith. If it is not there, then you can through it on the sea. It is nothing.

The Koran states that women are the property of men. If a person believes that a woman is not property, is this belief necessarily without merit since the Koran says otherwise? Ought it be thrown to sea?

Originally posted by ahosyney
Ok,

Many Muslims don't know about Islam, and that is the source of many problems we face today.

Thaks for that. So why is it that most Muslims do not know about Islam? Is it a lack of education or a dependence on their spiritual leaders for guidance over the Quran and Hadith?

Originally posted by ahosyney
I memorize the whole book and I read more than 100 times

Seriously? The whole thing? I had a topic here not too long ago about Biblical memorization. You put the Christians to shame. The best I found there were two people who had each memorized one book, and I think one of them was lying. Hell, even the Reverend only had a few verses memorized!

The whole thing? Damn!

Originally posted by whodey
No, not really because I have heard you say this over and over again, not only to me, but to others on this forum. Therefore, it is I who owe you an apology for telling you what I think despite this fact.

You say and believe a lot of things despite the facts.

And I'm a bad student of the Buddha for not finding forgiveness for your evangelical crap. You are simply misled and may in time grow out of this.

It is close to the first anniversary of my son's death, so I'm more than a little out of sorts and on edge.

I'll be better later on.

In the meantime, best keep out of my way. When I go next week to unveil his tombstone there will be no prayers -- well, that's not even true.

I actually agreed with my wife who suggested asking her sister in law, who is quite religious and a true believer, to say the Jewish prayer for the dead. And we did that because we love her, not because my son needs the words spoken or would even approve. He'd make that crooked grin and imitate perfectly some TV evangelist and tell us to go read our scripture and go to church -- all that did not make him angry, it simply made him laugh.

When my father told me not to waste money on funeral arrangements for him because it wouldn't matter to him, he wasn't thinking clearly. All those arrangements were for his widow, not for him. Although we both were quite satisfied in our unconfirmed belief that he would not be present at the ceremony in any case we were wrong there, too. For I found that he never really left me.

There is a scene towards the end of that most wonderful movie For Whom the Bell Tolls where Gary Cooper tells Ingrid Bergman that she must go, she must flee before the enemy comes and leave Cooper, her lover, behind to face them and die holding them back to make good her escape. He tells her that all the life that he will have from that moment on is with and inside her. She carries him with her, he is a part of her and so she must go to "save our life."

I think that captures it very well.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
How many and what sort of sources do you want?

We have (1) the government of a Muslim country, (2) a editorialist in a major newspaper in a Muslim country, and (3) a Muslim community leader. These are all clearly prominent Muslims. (For if they weren't, how do you account for them continuing to hold the positions they do?)

The article I cited ...[text shortened]... o believe that honor killing is justified and also, but unrelatedly, just happen to be Muslim?

Sir, you are free to believe what ever you believe, and to say what ever you want to say, I said enough, and you said what you want and there is nothing more need to be said, I just have one comment:

You said:
The article I cited also cites a verse from the Koran stating in no uncertain terms that women are the property of men and shall be beaten for disobedience.

Ok, here is the translation in your article:

Quranic verse (4:34) in their defense:

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and [as to] those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

And here another translation:

(Nobel-Translation)(An-Nisaa)(o 34 o)(34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend -to support them- from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient -to Allâh and to their husbands-, and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard -e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.-. As to those women on whose part you see ill­conduct, admonish them -first-, -next-, refuse to share their beds, -and last- beat them -lightly, if it is useful-, but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means -of annoyance-. Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great.)

Where does it exactly say that women are the property of men?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Seriously? The whole thing? I had a topic here not too long ago about Biblical memorization. You put the Christians to shame. The best I found there were two people who had each memorized one book, and I think one of them was lying. Hell, even the Reverend only had a few verses memorized!

The whole thing? Damn!

I'm not the only one, Mellions of Muslims around the world do memorize it all. And many of them even don't know Arabic. And generations after generation Quran was memorized and preserved. And there are many people who memorize Quran are registered in a way that we know the chain from that person to the prophet person by person.

My 4 years old daughter already memorize some of it.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
The Koran states that women are the property of men. If a person believes that a woman is not property, is this belief necessarily without merit since the Koran says otherwise? Ought it be thrown to sea?

In another post I quoted the verse, and asked you to show me where does it say that women are the property of men. If it doesn't say that, then your argument is not valid.

Originally posted by Scriabin
You say and believe a lot of things despite the facts.

And I'm a bad student of the Buddha for not finding forgiveness for your evangelical crap. You are simply misled and may in time grow out of this.

It is close to the first anniversary of my son's death, so I'm more than a little out of sorts and on edge.

I'll be better later on.

In the meant ...[text shortened]... of her and so she must go to "save our life."

I think that captures it very well.

Apology accepted....if that is what that was?

Anyhew, if I were in the same position as you there is no telling how on edge I would be. I just pray you don't stay there. Bitterness and anger will be more than happy to consume you and then spit you out if you let it. My prayers go with you....that is if you don't mind. 😛