Islam is a Scourge

Originally posted by ahosyney


Where does it exactly say [b]that women are the property of men?[/b]

Do you know the game 20 Questions? In this game, one person thinks of something, and the other person can ask up to 20 Yes or No questions to try to guess what it is. It would go something like this.


Q: Is one of its main roles in life to guard your stuff?
A: Yes

Q: Does it need you to provide for it?
A: Yes

Q: Are the best ones obedient to you?
A: Yes

Q: Should you admonish the bad ones?
A: Yes

Q: Should you beat the really bad ones?
A: Yes

And so on. At the end of this exchange, when the contestant is ready to guess, based on the responses given, do you think the contestant is more likely to guess, "Is it a woman that you love?" or "Is it a dog that you own?"

Originally posted by whodey
Apology accepted....if that is what that was?

Anyhew, if I were in the same position as you there is no telling how on edge I would be. I just pray you don't stay there. Bitterness and anger will be more than happy to consume you and then spit you out if you let it. My prayers go with you....that is if you don't mind. 😛

Whatever makes you happy and doesn't encroach on me I surely don't mind.

I think some people can be left to their harmless eccentricities and irrational beliefs without a need for my input.

I reserve my contempt and anger for those who presume to tell me that they know that which no one has known, does know, or can know.

I may have been born at night, but not last night.

Originally posted by ahosyney
I'm not the only one, Mellions of Muslims around the world do memorize it all. And many of them even don't know Arabic.

This blows my mind. Do you mean to say that even people who don't know Arabic memorize the Arabic Koran? Allah Akbar!

Originally posted by ahosyney
Ok,

In Islam there is a punishment for Adultery. And this punishment is the same for both man and woman. And to execute this punishment there a very restricted regulations should be performed so that any one could be accused of adultery. This include 4 witnesses that see the person under suspection doing the act which practically can't happen unless it
Many Muslims don't know about Islam, and that is the source of many problems we face today.

Ever heard parents who drink, smoke, party, use foul language all in excess and in front of their kids complain that they dont understand why their kids have bad habits or not growing up well ? Well you sound like one of those parents.

From what you say Islam is a violent religion.
Death penalty for adultery.
Death penalty for fornication.
Death penalty for apostacy
Death for this, that
Cut off hands for stealing
Cut off feet for ... whatever
Wife beating ...
Kids beating ...

Islam encourages violent punishment for crimes.
So its easy to understand why even though neither the Koran nor Hadiths contain any specific statement about honor killings, the culture has developed which accepts it, probably because it fits nicely with the spirit of Islamic teachings.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Do you know the game 20 Questions? In this game, one person thinks of something, and the other person can ask up to 20 Yes or No questions to try to guess what it is. It would go something like this.


Q: Is one of its main roles in life to guard your stuff?
A: Yes

Q: Does it need you to provide for it?
A: Yes

Q: Are the best ones o ...[text shortened]... test is more likely to guess, "Is it a woman that you love?" or "Is it a dog that you own?"

we don't play games when we try to understand what Quran tell us. We first check what quran say about something. And if it is not clear, we look at hadith to see what the prophet said and did, and if not clear there to, we start to use reasoning and comparison to understand it. And Quran say nothing about women being owned by men. And in Hadith , we see that the prophet explained what does the verse mean and he defined what is ment by the beating in the verse. So I don't need to listen to your understanding because it means nothing.

All these questions are studied thousends of years ago, and are well explained in many books. It is not waiting for new explainations.

I hope that I made it clear.

And again, you position is clear, and I can't ask you to change your mind, just because I said so.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ever heard parents who drink, smoke, party, use foul language all in excess and in front of their kids complain that they dont understand why their kids have bad habits or not growing up well ? Well you sound like one of those parents.

From what you say Islam is a violent religion.
Death penalty for adultery.
Death penalty for fornication.
Death penal ...[text shortened]... eveloped which accepts it, probably because it fits nicely with the spirit of Islamic teachings.

Are you Christian?

Originally posted by ahosyney
Are you Christian?

What does that have to do with the topic under discussion?

Originally posted by Rajk999
What does that have to do with the topic under discussion?

Because if you are Christian and I think you are, then the Bible doesn't teach something different, and so if what explained is your opinion, it will apply to whoever believe in the Bible including you.

So if you are Christian I will ask you to think about your opinion other wise I will have to say that Christianity is also a violence religion and that will lead us to no where.

You may say that I don't understand the Bible, and my statement is not accurate, and I did ignore a lot of facts, and I will say the same, because the way you presented your argument ignores a lot of details associated with each punishment that makes it far from being violence. But you simply ignored that.

I don't mean that you shouldn't present your opinion, but all what I ask is that you be fair when you present it.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Because if you are Christian and I think you are, then the Bible doesn't teach something different, and so if what explained is your opinion, it will apply to whoever believe in the Bible including you.

So if you are Christian I will ask you to think about your opinion other wise I will have to say that Christianity is also a violence religion and that ...[text shortened]... shouldn't present your opinion, but all what I ask is that you be fair when you present it.

Regardless. It makes no difference what religion any poster is on the thread. If Christianity teaches stupid things that has no bearing on what happens in Islam. Trying diversionary tactics make you look stupid.

Originally posted by whodey
Thaks for that. So why is it that most Muslims do not know about Islam? Is it a lack of education or a dependence on their spiritual leaders for guidance over the Quran and Hadith?

First of all I can't say Most people. May it is the case but I can tell.

The two points you presented are two among many. Although the first one is one of the most important reasons. Even I can say it is the main cause of all the other reasons.

For example: There is nothing called spiritual leadership in Islam. In other words after prophet Mohammed no one is infallible. And so you can follow the opinion of one scholar as long as this opinion is supported by Quran or Hadith. If not then there is nothing that force you to follow him. but ignorance give a space to anyone to assume leadership among ignorant people, and manuplate them to do whatever he wants.

Why there is a lake of Islamic education among Muslims is another story!!!

Originally posted by ahosyney
we don't play games when we try to understand what Quran tell us. We first check what quran say about something. And if it is not clear, we look at hadith to

I wasn't suggesting that Islamic scholars adopt 20 Questions as a hermeunetic method (although the results would be quite interesting). Rather, I was attempting to illustrate that the Koran assigns attributes to women that are typical of property, rather than typical of personhood, such as autonomy, interests, etc., to such an extent that one's best conclusion would be that the Koran holds women to be property. Or alternatively, if it wasn't known what the Koran was referring to, a decent human being would be very surprised to find out that it was referring to a person when it describes something that intrinsically ought to stand guard, obey or be beaten.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Regardless. It makes no difference what religion any poster is on the thread. If Christianity teaches stupid things that has no bearing on what happens in Islam. Trying diversionary tactics make you look stupid.

Yes, you are right.

But that is not the only thing I said, the way you presented you argument is not fair. So to answer your points I have to go back to all the details which you ignored.

If Christianity teaches stupid things that has no bearing on what happens in Islam.

It is not like that. For me, GOD is one, and he never changed, and what he tought in the past will not change. And as all Muslims believe in all prophets before prophet Muhammed including Jesus, Moses and Ibraham, so what is in the Bible, is some how related to what Islam teach, because we believe that the original teachings of those prophets is Islam. And so we find similar teachings in the Bible.

That doesn't mean I believe in each word in the Bible, or that I attack each word in the Bible. It is just tha I believe the original Message came from one source!!!!

Originally posted by ahosyney
Yes, you are right.

But that is not the only thing I said, the way you presented you argument is not fair. ..!!!!

I presented a very simple analogy about parents expecting kids to grow up well when they dont set a good example.

The same thing happens in Islam. The koran and hadiths and leaders all pronouce particularly serious penalties for petty wrong-doing. Society and customs among muslims will therefore follow similar lines.

Whats not fair ?

Originally posted by ahosyney
Yes, you are right.

But that is not the only thing I said, the way you presented you argument is not fair. So to answer your points I have to go back to all the details which you ignored.

[b]If Christianity teaches stupid things that has no bearing on what happens in Islam.

It is not like that. For me, GOD is one, and he never changed, and wh ...[text shortened]... each word in the Bible. It is just tha I believe the original Message came from one source!!!![/b]

You refer to the OT as if that is what has influenced Christianity.
Are you saying that Christians believe that adulterers and apostates deserve the death penalty?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I wasn't suggesting that Islamic scholars adopt 20 Questions as a hermeunetic method (although the results would be quite interesting). Rather, I was attempting to illustrate that the Koran assigns attributes to women that are typical of property, rather than typical of personhood, such as autonomy, interests, etc., to such an extent that one's best ...[text shortened]... , a decent human being would be very surprised to find out that it was referring to a person.

Taking anything out of context will make it meaningless. And so reading Quran outside the Islamic context will make it meaning less.

So your conlusion doesn't make any sense to me, because I know what was ment by the verse. And it is not what you conluded. Simply becuase it is a clear teaching that a woman is not a property of man. Marriage in Islam is a contract to build a Family. Each members of the Family has duties to do, and needs to be fulfilled. If any party violate its part of the conract Quran gives regulations solve that problem (for both man and women) and that verse if part of these regulations. So looking it it alone and ignoring all the other verses is not correct.

Also to make my idea clear, Quran give the woman the right to break Mariage if she thought that it couldn't be continued, which contradict the idea that she is a property of man.

Here is the verse so that you can read it:

(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Baqarah)(o 229 o)(229. The divorce is twice, after that, either you retain her on reasonable terms or release her with kindness. And it is not lawful for you -men- to take back -from your wives- any of your Mahr -bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage- which you have given them, except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allâh -e.g. to deal with each other on a fair basis-. Then if you fear that they would not be able to keep the limits ordained by Allâh, then there is no sin on either of them if she gives back -the Mahr or a part of it- for her Al-Khul' -divorce-. These are the limits ordained by Allâh, so do not transgress them. And whoever transgresses the limits ordained by Allâh, then such are the Zâlimûn -wrong-doers, etc.-.)

So the man gives his wife Mahr (amount of money for herself) at the time of Mariage, and this money is her own property and the man has no right to take it back even in the case of divorce, unless the is the party that want divorce, and in this case she return the money (or part of it according to their agreement), and get her divorce which in this case called Al Khul.

I hope that makes it clear that you conlusion was wrong!!!