20 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterSo far as I know, Jesus says to believe in Him. So if one believes the teachings of Jesus and follows them, one will be transformed from a person who follows the desires of the self into one who lives a life of love, compassion, justice, etc.
I have to believe that it's about "being" righteous. From what I can tell, a transformation has to occur. A transformation from being slaves to the desires of the self to living a life of love, compassion, justice, etc. I believe that this is what Jesus is telling us. Listen to His voice and follow Him instead of remaining a slave to one's own voice, i e receive salvation that then leads on to transformation via the GIFT of God's spirit ?
If professing "faith" in Jesus is all it takes, then I'd have to say that the "transformational power" being granted isn't very strong. If it were, "Christians" would clearly be more righteous than the general population. From what I've seen, this isn't the case.
21 Oct 07
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOnePerhaps this is not your experience, but is your experience comprehensive? Since you cannot be everywhere at once, then it is obvious that you are generalizing. Perhaps we should rely on what the word of God says about the reality of inner transformation, rather than trust your limited perspective?
So far as I know, Jesus says to believe in Him. So if one believes the teachings of Jesus and follows them, one will be transformed from a person who follows the desires of the self into one who lives a life of love, compassion, justice, etc.
If professing "faith" in Jesus is all it takes, then I'd have to say that the "transformational power" being gr more righteous than the general population. From what I've seen, this isn't the case.
First of all, are Christians going to be perfect? It is true they are called to be perfect, but will they be perfect in this life?
We all know that God's standard is perfect holiness, inward and outward. The fallacy of the Pharisaic conception of holiness is precisely that man can somehow become worthy of heaven by performing external works alone. But Christ declared, "Unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!" (Matt. 5:20).
The whole sermon on the mount drives this home, setting the bar for holiness infinitely higher than the Pharisees taught, e.g., "“You have heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment!" (Matt. 5:21-22). The teachings of Jesus encompass not only external righteousness, but internal righteousness; even thoughts and emotions are subject to judgment! Why did Christ set the bar so high, higher than the law of Moses? After all, it is impossible for anyone to be perfectly righteous both externally and inwardly, all of the time.
Do you think Jesus, gracious and merciful as He is, seriously expects us to fulfill the requirements of perfect holiness in our own power? No way; He knows better than anyone how hopelessly corrupt the heart of man is; even the most well-intentioned, law-abiding citizens aren't inwardly perfect. Left as we are, heaven would be an empty place.
Obviously, then, Jesus intends to radically change the hearts of men. How did He do it? By dying on the cross as a propitiation for the sins of the whole world, and, after rising from the dead to glory, sending the Holy Spirit into the world in order to sanctify (make holy) those who trust in His gospel. Those who trust in Him will not come into condemnation, not because they are perfect people, but because they trust in Christ's perfect sacrifice; they depend on God for their righteousness.
Furthermore, they are raised to new life, inwardly, and given the Holy Spirit in order to be made progressively holy, inwardly. Again, are they ever going to be perfect? No, but they will be progressively sanctified until the day they die.
Now, would it do for someone to cease believing that the Lord's grace is sufficient for them and to relinquish their assurance in Christ's work on the cross, in order to begin doing good works from a heart of unbelief? - imagining again that it is possible to please God apart from faith? No, way. It is impossible to please God without faith, and those who attempt to please God without faith have fallen away from Truth: "Without faith it is impossible to please him" (Heb. 11:6), "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope" (Gal. 5:4-5).
In conclusion, you can plainly see that an inward transformation is necessary, that Christ provides this transformation through faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God. Did Jesus in His teachings ever stress faith in the Son of God for salvation? Yes, and with very forceful language.
""Then Jesus said to the woman, “Your sins are forgiven.” The men at the table said among themselves, “Who is this man, that he goes around forgiving sins?” And Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace"" (Luke 7:48-50).
"Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).
Do you believe that God's grace is sufficient for you? If so, do you rejoice in this fact? Faith is not nebulous, you either trust Jesus or you don't. And trust in Jesus is not a small matter either; those who do not trust in Him are damned; cut off:
"Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either. Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off" (Heb. 11:20-22).
Faith is necessary in and of itself, and so is the inner transformation which God works in the life of a believer by the power of the Holy Spirit. Without faith goodness avails nothing.
21 Oct 07
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Originally posted by epiphinehasWhile I'd guess you mean well, your posts betray one with limited life experience. They betray a lack of depth of understanding and clarity.
Perhaps this is not your experience, but is your experience comprehensive? Since you cannot be everywhere at once, then it is obvious that you are generalizing. Perhaps we should rely on what the word of God says about the reality of inner transformation, rather than trust your limited perspective?
First of all, are Christians going to be perfect? by the power of the Holy Spirit. Without faith goodness avails nothing.
Not everyone's life experience is as limited as yours.
You seem to have yet to come to the realization that "the word of God" and your interpretation of scriptures are not necessarily one and the same.
Not everyone who disagrees with you are behind you. Some are ahead of you. Some are well ahead of you.
You should try harder to comprehend what others are saying. It seems that you allow your perspective to distort the message. You've yet to develop a 'neutral lens'.
Just because you think you understand what others are saying doesn't mean you do.
You've yet to develop a love of truth. You're quite careless with it.
You're still a kid with much to learn and understand. You have eyes but cannot see.
21 Oct 07
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneAd hominem. Pure ad hominem.
While I'd guess you mean well, your posts betray one with limited life experience. They betray a lack of depth of understanding and clarity.
Not everyone's life experience is as limited as yours.
You seem to have yet to come to the realization that "the word of God" and your interpretation of scriptures are not necessarily one and the same.
Not
You're still a kid with much to learn and understand. You have eyes but cannot see.
It's quite telling that you never respond to my posts and instead merely attack me personally. I'd expect more from someone who claims to be so much more mature and enlightened than myself.
Well, if you ever want to actually discuss anything, I'll be around.
Peace.
21 Oct 07
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Originally posted by epiphinehasAttack or help? Perhaps it's your pride that keeps you from understanding the difference.
Ad hominem. Pure ad hominem.
It's quite telling that you never respond to my posts and instead merely attack me personally. I'd expect more from someone who claims to be so much more mature and enlightened than myself.
Well, if you ever want to actually discuss anything, I'll be around.
Peace.
I have a friend that used to accuse me of 'attacking' her. Now she thanks me for being 'the only one who cared enough to help [her].'
22 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOK, let's assume you can help me. Start by responding to my post. All I'm getting out of you is an endless and boring string of unfounded, baseless statements. I don't care who you are, or how highly you esteem yourself, if you don't have anything substantive to back up your talk, then you're just a phony. Are you a phony, ThinkOfOne?
Attack or help? Perhaps it's your pride that keeps you from understanding the difference.
I have a friend that used to accuse me of 'attacking' her. Now she thanks me for being 'the only one who cared enough to help [her].'
While I'd guess you mean well, your posts betray one with limited life experience.
Fair enough, please tell me what about my post betrays a person with limited life experience.
Just because you think you understand what others are saying doesn't mean you do.
Of course! But just saying to me, "just because you think you understand what others are saying doesn't mean you do," isn't enough. I need you to also explain what exactly it is that I don't understand. Let me have it!
You've yet to develop a love of truth. You're quite careless with it.
Careless how?
You seem to have yet to come to the realization that "the word of God" and your interpretation of scriptures are not necessarily one and the same.
This is a perfect example of how you allude to an error, give some indication that you know just how to correct it, BUT NEVER OFFER ANYTHING OF SUBSTANCE TO BACK IT UP. ThinkOfOne, now would be the time to step up to the plate and crack one out of the park. Assuming, of course, that you're not just bluffing (which I believe you are).
I'm not above being taught. I have several spiritual mentors who are like second and third fathers to me. If any of them have anything to teach me, they do it with grace and without lording anything over me. We discuss issues openly and I'm welcome to challenge what I hear.
But I get the distinct impression that you don't know what you're talking about at all. I keep giving substantive challenges to your particular theology and all you are able to do in return are circumvent my inquiries or assume an air of superiority.
Not everyone who disagrees with you are behind you. Some are ahead of you. Some are well ahead of you.
I never claimed that anyone who disagrees with me is "behind me." That's your default position, remember?
You're still a kid with much to learn and understand. You have eyes but cannot see.
Your condescension isn't lost on me. 😉 Good stuff.
22 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasSo Jesus didn't mean what he said? Absurd.
Perhaps this is not your experience, but is your experience comprehensive? Since you cannot be everywhere at once, then it is obvious that you are generalizing. Perhaps we should rely on what the word of God says about the reality of inner transformation, rather than trust your limited perspective?
First of all, are Christians going to be perfect? by the power of the Holy Spirit. Without faith goodness avails nothing.
EDIT: I suggest you study the concluding words of the Sermon on the Mount; Matthew 7:22-27:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
25 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.
26 And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.
22 Oct 07
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Originally posted by no1marauderWhat astonishes me, no1, is that you can read and quote this scripture and not recognize that Jesus Christ is truly divine. Your hard-heartedness astounds me (though, admittedly, I was once as you are now).
So Jesus didn't mean what he said? Absurd.
EDIT: I suggest you study the concluding words of the Sermon on the Mount; Matthew 7:22-27:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: de ...[text shortened]... me, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.
That Christ meant exactly what He said in Matt. 7:22-27 should make you fear for your eternal safety. Christ is demanding something of you which you have no hope of fulfilling in your own power! No one can live a holy life and perform what Christ demands in their own strength.
You cannot obey the commands of Christ without the help of the Holy Spirit. Have you tried to live a holy life in your own strength? Remaining not only pure outwardly but inwardly? It's impossible, and if you say it's not, that only proves that you've never really tried.
Notice in Matt. 7:24, right after the part you highlighted, it says, "...shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock." What did the wise man do? He built his house upon the rock, and the "rock" is Jesus Christ.
"Therefore, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: “Look! I am placing a foundation stone in Jerusalem, a firm and tested stone. It is a precious cornerstone that is safe to build on. Whoever believes need never be shaken" (Isaiah 28:16).
It is indeed important to be a doer of the word, no doubt, but you cannot be a doer of the word without an inner transformation and help from the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is only given to those who believe in the Gospel of Christ.
24 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSo let's say you are right and there's a lot of faith out there that is really just "believism" . What does it prove? Does it prove that real faith cannot transform? Does it negate what I am saying?
So far as I know, Jesus says to believe in Him. So if one believes the teachings of Jesus and follows them, one will be transformed from a person who follows the desires of the self into one who lives a life of love, compassion, justice, etc.
If professing "faith" in Jesus is all it takes, then I'd have to say that the "transformational power" being gr ...[text shortened]... more righteous than the general population. From what I've seen, this isn't the case.
24 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIf professing "faith" in Jesus is all it takes, then I'd have to say that the "transformational power" being granted isn't very strong. think of one------------
So far as I know, Jesus says to believe in Him. So if one believes the teachings of Jesus and follows them, one will be transformed from a person who follows the desires of the self into one who lives a life of love, compassion, justice, etc.
If professing "faith" in Jesus is all it takes, then I'd have to say that the "transformational power" being gr ...[text shortened]... more righteous than the general population. From what I've seen, this isn't the case.
Doesn't the entire NT and Jesus himself speak of this transformational power? If there are 1 million christians who don't "really" have faith but only one who does and is transformed because of his faith in christ then what I say still stands. The fact that there are many nominal christians about doesn't negate that it's faith that saves , however saving faith is followed by transformation of some kind (as evidence or fruits of faith) but it is not the transformation that saves . A man is not saved because he is transformed , he is transformed because he is saved. As usual you get the cart before the horse.
24 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasIt astounds me that you are so brainwashed that you refuse to actually accept what Jesus says while at the same time pretending you are following his teachings! Christ simply never says in the Synoptic Gospels what you are claiming i.e. that no one can live a sufficient enough life to acheive salvation without some magical Holy Spirit. Time after time, passage after passage and chapter after chapter in the Synoptic Gospels Jesus stresses the absolute necessity of works of good will, mercy and kindness to your fellow man. Answer a question I've asked you several times:
What astonishes me, no1, is that you can read and quote this scripture and not recognize that Jesus Christ is truly divine. Your hard-heartedness astounds me (though, admittedly, I was once as you are now).
That Christ meant exactly what He said in Matt. 7:22-27 should make you fear for your eternal safety. Christ is demanding something of you which pirit. And the Holy Spirit is only given to those who believe in the Gospel of Christ.
IF one need only believe in Jesus and accept the "Holy Spirit" and then you are saved, why oh why doesn't Jesus simply tell you that? Why does he instead constantly stress the necessity of works?
EDIT: Your interpretation of Matthew 7:24 is laughable. It says:
24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
The "rock" is based on hearing Jesus' words and then doing them. Compare with Matthew 7:26:
26 And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
And please don't partially quote verses; it's pathetically dishonest.
24 Oct 07
Originally posted by no1marauderYou make Jesus sound like a communist.
It astounds me that you are so brainwashed that you refuse to actually accept what Jesus says while at the same time pretending you are following his teachings! Christ simply never says in the Synoptic Gospels what you are claiming i.e. that no one can live a sufficient enough life to acheive salvation without some magical Holy Spirit. Time after time, p ...[text shortened]... 't Jesus simply tell you that? Why does he instead constantly stress the necessity of works?
24 Oct 07
4 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderIF one need only believe in Jesus and accept the "Holy Spirit" and then you are saved, why oh why doesn't Jesus simply tell you that? Why does he instead constantly stress the necessity of works?
It astounds me that you are so brainwashed that you refuse to actually accept what Jesus says while at the same time pretending you are following his teachings! Christ simply never says in the Synoptic Gospels what you are claiming i.e. that no one can live a sufficient enough life to acheive salvation without some magical Holy Spirit. Time after time, p sand:
And please don't partially quote verses; it's pathetically dishonest.
Of course Jesus is going to stress the necessity of works. We are called to the highest standard of holiness possible: Jesus Christ Himself. But if you think Christ expects you to conform to His likeness in your own power, then you are dead wrong. "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" (Matt. 26:41).
And BTW, Christ does tell you how you can believe and be saved, and He does tell you to ask for and receive the Holy Spirit:
Believe...
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).
Receive...
"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" (Luke 11:10-13).
-------------------
It astounds me that you are so brainwashed that you refuse to actually accept what Jesus says while at the same time pretending you are following his teachings!
God is my judge, not you.
I know what Jesus says, and I believe in Him and follow His teachings, i.e., His teachings to love God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength, and love my neighbor as myself. You don't know me, so you have no idea how I live my life; it's dishonest of you to pretend to judge me based on some theological prejudice of yours. I'm not arguing against Christ's message, I'm arguing against your skewing of His message; you are perverting the Gospel of grace and making it into a gospel of works.
If you want to believe that works without faith can save you, well, that's your choice and I'm powerless to stop you. But you will not be able to stand before Christ on Judgment day and point your finger at me and tell Him that I didn't warn you. You need to repent and place your faith in Jesus Christ! Is your pride really worth saving at the expense of eternal life in the presence of your loving Creator?
Think about it, neighbor.
25 Oct 07
1 edit
This faith-versus-works debate has been going on here for years now; only the players change.
The early post-apostolic church seems to have known little or nothing of sola fide (just as they knew nothing of sola scriptura—both doctrines articulated by Luther), On the other hand, they seem to have known little or nothing of sola opera either. There was no “pat” soteriology.
“Scripture”—such writings as that word encompassed for various groups prior to the decision on a set canon—did not drop out of the sky to these folks: it came with a body of interpretive schema handed down through the church, from the apostles to their students, etc. (much of it liturgical). The Greek Orthodox continue to recognize this tradition today; Rome also continued to recognize it after the Great Schism of 1054, according to its own particular understandings (which the Orthodox would call innovations). Protestantism seems generally to have thrown all that out, apparently trusting the Holy Spirit to have ensured that the church fathers got the canon right, but not that they could read it right.
