Originally posted by SmoothCowboySome churches preach the following :
Did you say "unscriptural and manmade"? Not according to my Bible.
Ephesians 1:13-14
(13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purch ...[text shortened]... sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1. A man is born again - meaning baptised
2. He is regenerated
3. He is saved there and then.
4. He cannot loose his salvation regardless of his conduct or works.
For example if the church has 5000 devotees converted and born again and accept Christ as their personal saviour, the CHURCH LEADERS WILL TELL THEM ALL THAT THEY ARE SAVED IMMEMDIATELY AND CANNOT LOOSE THEIR SALVATION. The question is it right (scripturally) to tell the convertees that.
Some time ago Jaywill, Pritybetta & Epiphinehas all agreed that the above is correct. However now Pritybetta concedes that not all those that born again are necessarily saved and that only Jesus Christ knows who is saved.
Without the voluminous bible quotes, what is your position on this issue.
Originally posted by Rajk999=============================
LOL ... are you trying to score points with Pritybetta?
Maybe you really believe that she can tell who is saved and who is not?
You people are confused.
I suggest you start listening to the Words of Jesus.
His words have the power of salvation.
His words are simple and easy to understand.
All this convoluted foolishness about being saved as soon as ple like you that mislead the gullible and the weak minded. Good Luck to you. Discussion over.
LOL ... are you trying to score points with Pritybetta?
Maybe you really believe that she can tell who is saved and who is not?
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Pritybetta is not the point.
Your problem is not even in the Bible. It is in the way you think about what you read. You're myopic and cannot see things from more than one angle at a time.
You were able to flesh out the word "regeneration" an show an alternative meaning. It is hypocritical of you that you cannot do the same with the words "saved" or "salvation"
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You people are confused.
I suggest you start listening to the Words of Jesus.
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The last heretica poster (ToO) who suggested that didn't even believe that Jesus spoke in the book of Acts.
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His words have the power of salvation.
His words are simple and easy to understand.
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You are quite foolish not to realize that some people pioneered the exprience of His teachings and that we ought to listen to them as well.
Besides, you appeal for us to listen to Jesus is not genuine.
YOU won't listen to Jesus in John 8:58. So your charge for us to do so is hollow and hypocritical.
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All this convoluted foolishness.....
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You mean your convoluted excuses about not listening to Jesus in John 8:58 ??
Give it up.
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about being saved as soon as you are born again and cannot lose your salvation and its guaranteed is unscriptural manmade doctrines designed to get more people in the church, so that the greedy pastors can buy their big houses and live extravagantly.
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Now you are ADDING your own false accusations against me.
Where I meet we do not even have a pastoral system. Not all Christians meet in a clergy/laity arrangement.
Go look up the word "salvation" in your concordance and see in how many different ways it is used.
I am really not impressed with people like you who claim to be for the words of Jesus while rejecting His apostles through whom HIS WORDS in came the first place.
The Discussion never got started because of your myopic and phony attitude towards rejecting the words of Jesus when they do not agree with your false doctrine.
You also avoid the truth by complaining about having to read too much.
Originally posted by Rajk999I believe if a person truly understands the gospel they are saved at that point. When they believe, they are baptized with a spiritual baptism(by the Holy Ghost) into the body of Christ and the Spirit dwells in them.
The question is it right (scripturally) to tell the convertees that.
Some time ago Jaywill, Pritybetta & Epiphinehas all agreed that the above is correct. However now Pritybetta concedes that not all those that born again are necessarily saved and that only Jesus Christ knows who is saved.
Without the voluminous bible quotes, what is your position on this issue.
Based on those verses previously quoted, I don't think you can lose it.
Galatians 3:2-3
(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Originally posted by SmoothCowboyIts very interesting that none of youall can answer that question clearly unless I pin you in a corner and squeeze the correct answer out of you.
I believe if a person truly understands the gospel they are saved at that point. When they believe, they are baptized with a spiritual baptism(by the Holy Ghost) into the body of Christ and the Spirit dwells in them.
Based on those verses previously quoted, I don't think you can lose it.
Galatians 3:2-3
(2) This only would I learn of you, Receiv ...[text shortened]... ith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
You are saying you believe that IF a person truly understands the gospel, then you dont think they can lose it.
Sounds like you are not certain. There is good reason for your uncertainty. Its because only Jesus Christ can know who understands the gospel or not, who is genuine or not, whose heart is in the right place or not, and ultimately who will get salvation or not. Nobody else knows that. It is therefore misleading and crooked of church leaders to fool the congregation by telling them that their salvation is assured regardless of what they do.
Originally posted by snowinscotland
"So you could know that you were saved, but not be saved?"
Some 'think' they are with out finding out for themselves. This does not mean you could know you are saved but not be saved. Some 'think' they know, only because their pastor tells them and not going to the Word of God.
"And I could be saved, but not know it."
Yes. When a baby is born, he/she does not know they were born. They have to learn it. Knowing they were born does not make them born. That is what I was trying to explain in my example.
"I still don't get it.
Your example of a child coming to believe something by use of witnesses I am not sure I am comfortable with. The child could be deceived by well meaning relatives into coming to 'know' something that is not true."
My example was just that, an example. I was trying to show that being saved and being sure of your salvation was not the same thing. The Bible is full of witnesses. This is one way it was written, through witnesses that the Lord used. In my example I was meaning those who saw what happened. I should have used the example of a baby being born and then learning they were born. Sorry if the first example confused you.
Originally posted by Rajk999Excuse me, but what I am trying to explain to you is not excepted in any church I have ever attended. It is in no means 'selling' salvation. Apparently, you do not study your Bible, or you have a totally different one than what we are studying. You say they are easy to understand, yes, to those it is given. Remember when the apostles asked Jesus why he talked to the crowd in parables? Christ said that it is given to some to understand the parables. That means that some do not understand them because they are unable to unless they are given ears to hear and eyes to see. Those who mislead the gullible and weak minded are the preachers who preach "Say this prayer and you will be saved and will never loose your salvation not matter what you do." This makes people believe that they are saved but can go and live their lives how ever they want. When in fact those who do not desire to do the works, their faith is dead. Also, the preachers who preach " do this ,and do that, and you will be saved." are also teaching wrongly. They are teaching a works based faith, when the Bible teaches that salvation is not of works lest any should boast, but of the grace of God.
LOL ... are you trying to score points with Pritybetta?
Maybe you really believe that she can tell who is saved and who is not?
You people are confused.
I suggest you start listening to the Words of Jesus.
His words have the power of salvation.
His words are simple and easy to understand.
All this convoluted foolishness about being saved as soon as ...[text shortened]... ple like you that mislead the gullible and the weak minded. Good Luck to you. Discussion over.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The works are a result of salvation. With out works, your faith is dead, but at the same time they do not "make" you saved either. The Lord grants you faith through His grace, and thus causes you to 'want' to do the work of the Lord. However, someone had to be punished for your sins. So Christ took the place of those who are/will be saved.
BTW: I have already seen that Jaywill is a man of God. He has no need to be scoring points with me for I am nothing but (wo)man. Christ is what's important, not scoring points with eachother.
Originally posted by Rajk999
Some churches preach the following :
1. A man is born again - meaning baptised
2. He is regenerated
3. He is saved there and then.
4. He cannot loose his salvation regardless of his conduct or works."
NO! Never did I agree with the above. Some of it is true, but the way you presented it and other parts are not. The parts that are true are when someone is born again, they are saved, and their heart is regenerated. They are saved, and can not loose their salvation due to anything they do. However, they will do the work for the Lord, they will desire to because their heart was regenerated. The baptism you speak of is water baptism, I speak of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and not like what the penticostal churches teach as in tongues. Also, I do not believe anyone can know 'when' this happens, they 'come to know' that it did happen by studying the Bible and judging their own life according to what the Bible says are the fruits of a born again Christian.
"For example if the church has 5000 devotees converted and born again and accept Christ as their personal saviour, the CHURCH LEADERS WILL TELL THEM ALL THAT THEY ARE SAVED IMMEMDIATELY AND CANNOT LOOSE THEIR SALVATION. The question is it right (scripturally) to tell the convertees that."
NO, I do not think it is right for preachers to tell the congragation this, it is misleading. The preacher should tell them to study their Bible and always judge their own lives according to it.
"Some time ago Jaywill, Pritybetta & Epiphinehas all agreed that the above is correct. However now Pritybetta concedes that not all those that born again are necessarily saved and that only Jesus Christ knows who is saved."
Again, you have twisted my words, I never said that not all those born again are necessarily saved. I said that not all that 'claim' to be born again are saved. See, you have not understood something that is not hard to understand, and you say that what Christ taught is so easy an child can understand. Are you not any smarter than a child?
"Without the voluminous bible quotes, what is your position on this issue."
Originally posted by Rajk999I though it was clear enough. After they are saved they can't lose it. I am certain. Clear enough?
Its very interesting that none of youall can answer that question clearly unless I pin you in a corner and squeeze the correct answer out of you.
You are saying you [b]believe that IF a person truly understands the gospel, then you dont think they can lose it.
Sounds like you are not certain.
Originally posted by pritybettaOne of the parts of accepting christ is confessing that he is the savior with your mouth... this means to try to get other people to accept him.. if that doesn't fall under "doing works" I don't know what does.
Jaywill and Rajk999, I have noticed your discussion on the thread "be careful what you pray for". I seen where Jaywill has asked for the discussion to be on another thread and not that one, however, I have seen no effort from Rajk999 to take it to another thread, so I have started this one.
Rajk999, I would also like to address your first post in that ...[text shortened]... salvation it is in vain. This is a works based faith which takes away the work of Christ.
Originally posted by tomtom232Belief + nothing.
One of the parts of accepting christ is confessing that he is the savior with your mouth... this means to try to get other people to accept him.. if that doesn't fall under "doing works" I don't know what does.
Eternal life is received from believing into Christ.
Not belief + repentence
Not belief + baptism
Not belief + prayer
Not belief + calling
Not belief + your good works
Not belief + confession
Not belief + your tears
Not belief + good works
Some will of course jump to the conclusion that I am saying that these other matters are not important. I did not say they are not important. I do say that one received the gift of eternal life through BELIEVING YOURSELF INTO THE LIVING PERSON OF JESUS - period.
Originally posted by tomtom232Where in the Bible does it tell us to 'accept' Christ?
One of the parts of accepting christ is confessing that he is the savior with your mouth... this means to try to get other people to accept him.. if that doesn't fall under "doing works" I don't know what does.
Spreading the true Gospel is a work, I didn't say it wasn't. However, it is a work that comes from being saved. It does not get you saved. It is a result of what the Lord has already done.