10 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYes, 3 in 1.
One of God's most common names in the Old Testament is Elohim, which translates literally to "gods." However, when Elohim is used to describe the One True God, it is translated to "God." This is a fascinating word play in translation that teaches us how the majestic plural can be used in a word that is not a pronoun. An example of this translation of Elohim occurs in ...[text shortened]... clearly says that there is only one God.'
'https://www.compellingtruth.org/majestic-plural.html
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10 Jan 20
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@kellyjay saidThe use of plural "Elohim" coupled with singular "Lord" shows that there is only one God, and the plural usage is meant as a majestic plural.
Yes, 3 in 1.
10 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSo that was Moses intention when those words were used, not God’s revelation, according to you?
The use of plural "Elohim" coupled with singular "Lord" shows that there is only one God, and the plural usage is meant as a majestic plural.
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10 Jan 20
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@kellyjay saidGod speaks for Himself, does He not?
So that was Moses intention when those words were used, not God’s revelation, according to you?
10 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYes, and when He says Our, or We, it will matters.
God speaks for Himself, does He not?
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10 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidUnless He is speaking as a majestic plural to convey His greatness (which, let's face it, is far more likely than an indication He 3 in 1).
Yes, and when He says Our, or We, it will matters.
11 Jan 20
1 edit
@ghost-of-a-duke saidAnd since God doesn't do that, it means what it says in the context it is said in.
Unless He is speaking as a majestic plural to convey His greatness (which, let's face it, is far more likely than an indication He 3 in 1).
11 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThere is no one like God, none! The words majestic and greatness when applied to a man mean one thing; however, when applied to God something beyond human comprehension. You insult God doing that!
Unless He is speaking as a majestic plural to convey His greatness (which, let's face it, is far more likely than an indication He 3 in 1).
11 Jan 20
1 edit
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYour view of the existence of God and how literally the Bible ought to be taken does matter really. Were you a Christian literalist then you'd be justified in ascribing the precise wording to divine intervention. A Christian non-literalist might ascribe this to poetic license on behalf the the Bible writers. An atheist would point out that in the ancient Canaanite religion the top god was El. El referred to El specifically and was also used as a generic term, in the same way that we talk about "God" and "a god". El had 70 sons, c.f. Genesis 6, each of those gods was the patron God of a Canaanite city. Yahweh was the patron god of Jerusalem and as the Judeans and Samaritans moved from polytheism to monolateralism and eventually monotheism they demonized Ashtoreth, the Queen of Heaven, and Ba'al, and denied the divinity of the other city's gods. References to "we" are literal in the sense that the stories the Bible writers were compiling date from a time when it was a pantheon discussing matters. This also explains early references to "the Father", in the same way that Woden was the All-Father in Germanic paganism. I'm a little skeptical of this since it seems internally inconsistent - the writing down of the Bible dates to a time when they were already pretty far down the road to monotheism and were liable to want to suppress the memory of the pantheon. I don't know the full evidence for it. The Bible writers seem to have liked making plays on words so be wary of reading too much into precise wordings.
My own view on the existence or non-existence of God is irrelevant. It has no bearing on my ability to discuss the language used in scripture. And this 'stylistic device' is very important in understanding the very nature of the God presented.
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11 Jan 20
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God refers to Himself using plural pronouns four times in the Bible.
...
The most quoted example occurs in Genesis 1:26. God says, "'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. ...'" Here, and also in Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, and Isaiah 6:8, God uses the pronouns "us" and "our" to speak of Himself in plural form.
The New Testament is also part of the Bible.
And God uses "We" in John 14:23.
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him.".
And God used "Us" in John 17:21
"That they all may be one even as You Father, are in Me and I in You, they they also may be in Us that the world may believe that You have sent Me."
And God uses "We" again in John 17:22
"And the glory which You have given to Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one."
In addition to the Word who was God and became flesh speaking of "We" and "Us," possibly I might also add the "Their" (Rev. 6:17) spoken not by God but by the terrified earth dwellers expecting God's judgment is about to come.
"And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb;
For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6:16,17)
These verses occur before the doctrine of the Trinity is mentioned in the Bible,
It doesn't matter that the revelation was written before the extra-biblical term "trinity" was coined.
Jehovah appeared to Abraham as a man with two angels and had a lunch right beside his tent in the heat of the day. See Genesis 18. And this occurred most likely before the theological word "incarnation" was utilized.
11 Jan 20
@sonship saidWhy do you say the Lord appeared with two angels, if it was the Lord, why angels, why not just the Lord?
@Ghost-of-a-DukeGod refers to Himself using plural pronouns four times in the Bible.
...
The most quoted example occurs in Genesis 1:26. God says, "'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. ...'" Here, and also in Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, and Isaiah 6:8, God uses the pronouns "us" and "our" to speak of Himself in plural form.
The Ne ...[text shortened]... nesis 18. And this occurred most likely before the theological word "incarnation" was utilized.
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11 Jan 20
Why do you say the Lord appeared with two angels, if it was the Lord, why angels, why not just the Lord?
I would like to take the time to re-read Genesis 18, 19 carefully before I give a reply. However, I have always taken it as the third gentleman who stayed behind to speak to Abraham as the other two visitors continued their way down to Sodom, to mean one of the three was Jehovah.
And Jehovah said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, how great it is; and their sin, how very heavy it is!
I shall go down and see whether they have done altogether according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.
And the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham remained standing before Jehovah. (Gen. 18:20-22)
I never mind reading it again with an opened mind about it. A major doctrinal debate over the matter I probably would not make.
11 Jan 20
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@sonship saidI would say you have given a point to think about.
@KellyJay
Why do you say the Lord appeared with two angels, if it was the Lord, why angels, why not just the Lord?
I would like to take the time to re-read Genesis 18, 19 carefully before I give a reply. However, I have always taken it as the third gentleman who stayed behind to speak to Abraham as the other two visitors continued their way dow ...[text shortened]... in with an opened mind about it. A major doctrinal debate over the matter I probably would not make.
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11 Jan 20
@sonship
Yes, we were discussing the OT in particular, where the use of the plural "Elohim" coupled with singular "Lord" showed that there is only one God, and that the plural usage is meant as a majestic plural.