Originally posted by karoly aczelwhen someone is as adamant as Mr Terrier is, that Christianity is such a despicable and unworthy endeavour, and someone as adamant and convinced as Jaywill is, that its such a worthwhile and fulfilling endeavour, then we, on the periphery, are we not entitled to ask, why should this be the case?
Clearly for you there is nothing better than Jesus so why would TJ or anyone else feel the need to answer you? They would not think they were part of a fair debate and would quickly lose interest.
it is one thing to decry that Christianity is naught, but quite another to state what an alternative may be, and it seems to me, that what the problem facing those like Mr. terrier is, is that they must develop their own field of morality based on their own perceptions, which may be perfectly adequate for them as an individual,but not for others like Jaywill. However as a consequence it is a human and therefore imperfect morality. So while they may rant and rave about Jaywills unbending devotion to his God, it seems to me to be devoid of anything of substance, which Jaywill felt should be exposed. however it also seems to me to come down to the my God is better than your God argument, which may indeed be the case, but how are we to know?
Originally posted by karoly aczelIs there a point which TerrierJack raised which you feel I have not adaquately replied to ?
Clearly for you there is nothing better than Jesus so why would TJ or anyone else feel the need to answer you? They would not think they were part of a fair debate and would quickly lose interest.
Originally posted by jaywillWhy the pretense? I know you know the point since I've been raising it for some time now. He raised the point that you have an extremely self-centered view.
Is there a point which TerrierJack raised which you feel I have not adaquately replied to ?
Originally posted by jaywillI don't have to double dog dare him. You want to make excuses to not answer?
The fact of the matter is that I by far do not request of all posters that they put forth their alternative beliefs which they find superior to Christ.
Plenty of posters debate me here and disagree. I do not ask them all to discribe their supposed superior beliefs.
I did so in TerrierJack's case because of his broad brushed negative generalizations o you are so skeptical, some of us don't automatically assume that you also must be wise.
You certainly have a way of skirting the main point of a post. The main point of mine was the following:
"Jaywill created a slight breach of etiquette by accusing TerrierJack of evading the subject with distractions of ad hominem attacks as a defense to doing the same. Hopefully the defense via attack will go unnoticed."
Fine, but some of us notice that apart from sneering about what you don't believe, you don't seem to have something better than Jesus.
Just because you are so skeptical, some of us don't automatically assume that you also must be wise.
This is a straw man as well as yet another pretense. What I have is something better than your brand of "Christianity".
Like I said earlier:
"Even at that, tell you what, you address my earlier post and I'll give you an explanation of a better philosophy to adopt than your brand of 'Christianity'."
Are you incapable of making a post without the use of deceit?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneDo you mean that I follow Jesus for only selfish reasons? Is that the little gem you consider your strongest and unrefuted observation ?
[b]I don't have to double dog dare him. You want to make excuses to not answer?
You certainly have a way of skirting the main point of a post. The main point of mine was the following:
"Jaywill created a slight breach of etiquette by accusing TerrierJack of evading the subject with distractions of ad hominem attacks as a defense to doing the same. ...[text shortened]... f 'Christianity'."
Are you incapable of making a post without the use of deceit?[/b]
We can talk about that again.
Originally posted by jaywillDid I say anything about "strongest and unrefuted observation"? This is an attempt by you to put words in my mouth. You also say, "We can talk about that again" as if you haven't been dodging the issue.
Do you mean that I follow Jesus for only selfish reasons? Is that the little gem you consider your strongest and unrefuted observation ?
We can talk about that again.
Why the continued use of deceit? If "God is Truth", what does your continued use of deceit say about your respect for God?
Read my posts, particularly the post that I've been trying to get you to address for some time now. While you're at it. why don't you address it?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhich one is it? I asked you that before.
Did I say anything about "strongest and unrefuted observation"? This is an attempt by you to put words in my mouth. You also say, "We can talk about that again" as if you haven't been dodging the issue.
Why the continued use of deceit? If "God is Truth", what does your continued use of deceit say about your respect for God?
Read my posts, particular to get you to address for some time now. While you're at it. why don't you address it?
I don't want to go back and read through all your nasty words. Tell me which one it is.
Paste it in here.
Originally posted by jaywillYes, you asked me to paste it before, when you knew exactly which post I was talking about. That was in the midst of all your evasive maneuvering. I'm guessing you still know. I'm sure you can find it as well as I. Any trouble that you might have finding it is completely of your own making. You continue to make up any "excuse" to keep from addressing it.
Which one is it? I asked you that before.
I don't want to go back and read all your nasty words. Tell me which one it is.
Paste it in here.
The only thing that makes my words "nasty" is that they are true. There is little the self-centered hate so much as truth.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==============================
Yes, you asked me to paste it before, when you knew exactly which post I was talking about. That was in the midst of all your evasive maneuvering. I'm guessing you still know. I'm sure you can find it as well as I. Any trouble that you might have finding it is completely of your own making. You continue to make up any "excuse" to keep from addressing it. ...[text shortened]... ds "nasty" is that they are true. There is little the self-centered hate so much as truth.
Yes, you asked me to paste it before, when you knew exactly which post I was talking about. That was in the midst of all your evasive maneuvering. I'm guessing you still know
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So I'm lying when I say I don't know which post you want me to focus on ?
So I am pretending not to know but all along I am evading some obviously terrifically effective point you made ?
Originally posted by jaywillYou're really something else, jaywill.
[b]==============================
Yes, you asked me to paste it before, when you knew exactly which post I was talking about. That was in the midst of all your evasive maneuvering. I'm guessing you still know
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So I'm lying when I say I don't know which post you want me to focus on ?
So I am ...[text shortened]... not to know but all along I am evading some obviously terrifically effective point you made ?[/b]
The way you continue to twist things around and evade is truly remarkable.
Go back and read my posts on this thread as well as your responses. See if you can set aside your ego so that you can look at our exchange of posts objectively. You have eyes but cannot see.
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C'mon Jaywill. It seems reasonably clear that his post was addressed to you. It also seems reasonably clear that your post indicated an extremely self-centered view with phrases such as "Christ offers me...", "How will it benefit me?", "what do you have that is better for me?", etc.
Does it ever strike you as odd that Christianity, by and large, teaches one to be self-centered while Jesus teaches one to be God-centered?
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Is this the one ?
Well ToO, is this your bad boy ??
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C'mon THinkoOne, I went on that assumption. Didn't I?
TJ made the following statement:
"Couldn't have pointed out your interests any better than you just did."
You made the following statement instead of addressing his point:
"I still don't know who your comments are addressed to."
It was clearly a dodge. Why don't you just admit it?
"I think it is phony when people hide that fact that they have nothing to offer behind the fascade that the questioner is too self centered.
Its just an excuse. But for the record I also expanded the request to include anyone for the matter, if you read my reply carefully.
And you seem totally to have missed what I wrote about the "larger framework".
Go back and read how I responded that my personal salvation was not the ultimate goal but it fitted into a larger frame work of the salvation of the universe. "
Lets look at TJ's assertion:
"So to argue about them is to be distracted from the real concerns of humanity that so urgently need to be addressed. What are doing as a species about the coming big-rock? Can we reverse the damage that we have inflicted on the eco-system? Can we stop arguing (and killing each other) about trivia long enough to value our future of our children? Weigh all this against the massive insecurity that must drive someone to seek personal salvation and I think you'll understand why "Jesus wept." Today he would cry a river.
The gist of his argument seems to be that Christians are more concerned about their "personal salvation" than about loving one's neighbor and being good stewards of this planet.
Here was your initial response in it's entirety:
Christ has an answer for the problem of sin and death. He has an answer to the problem of my existence, why I am here.
Jesus Christ offers me total peace as to my sinful past and empowering grace for the present as well as undying hope for the future.
Christ offers me transformation into His glorious image. I can see it happening and others around me can also.
Christ offers me the gift of eternal life and the love of a family of brothers and sisters in Christ around the world. He offers me sweet fellowship and oneness with millions of fellow believers.
Christ offers me what I firmly believe is the truth about life as opposed to so many missteps and outright lies of the blind leading the blind.
Christ offers me the salvation of my being and the the environment of this world in which I live - a world to come free from sin, death, and unrighteousness where there are tears no more.
Christ offers me a life meaningful from second to second and adventure to be one with Him in God's eternal plan. Christ offers me the assurance of final victory and joy in my heart the carries me through trials and tribulations of every kind. He has never let me down.
Now if I drop my experience of Jesus Christ and take up your philosophy, how will it benefit me? What does your philosophy have to offer concerning these vital questions of man's existence ?
Other than stand along the sideline and jeer, what do you have that is better for me than Jesus Christ the Son of God ??
Clearly this is the post of someone primarily interested in himself and what he GETS. It wasn't until the post after TJ called you on it did you "expand the request to include anyone for the matter", speak about the "larger framework", say that your "personal salvation was not the ultimate goal".
Even at that in the middle of it you say "In all you reply so far I have not yet seen an answer to my question. What do I gain, or anyone for that matter, if we drop the Gospel of Christ and pick up your philosophy?". It's a self-centered point of view. Even when you include "anyone for that matter" it's to ask about their SELF-interests. It's what do I GET, what do we GET. It's not what can I GIVE, what can we GIVE. I really hope you take the time to reflect on this, gain some perspective and get out of denial.
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Clearly this is the post of someone primarily interested in himself and what he GETS. It wasn't until the post after TJ called you on it did you "expand the request to include anyone for the matter", speak about the "larger framework", say that your "personal salvation was not the ultimate goal".
Even at that in the middle of it you say "In all you reply so far I have not yet seen an answer to my question. What do I gain, or anyone for that matter, if we drop the Gospel of Christ and pick up your philosophy?". It's a self-centered point of view. Even when you include "anyone for that matter" it's to ask about their SELF-interests. It's what do I GET, what do we GET. It's not what can I GIVE, what can we GIVE. I really hope you take the time to reflect on this, gain some perspective and get out of denial.
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This is the post ?
ThinkoOne,
Please tell me it is not this one. Please !!!
It's too devastating ! Oh Please ! Not this one. The humiliation !!
The stark crushing reality of it !!!! The defeat of it !!
Please don't make me reply to this ThinkoOne !!
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Clearly this is the post of someone primarily interested in himself and what he GETS. It wasn't until the post after TJ called you on it did you "expand the request to include anyone for the matter", speak about the "larger framework", say that your "personal salvation was not the ultimate goal".
Even at that in the middle of it you say "In all you reply so far I have not yet seen an answer to my question. What do I gain, or anyone for that matter, if we drop the Gospel of Christ and pick up your philosophy?". It's a self-centered point of view. Even when you include "anyone for that matter" it's to ask about their SELF-interests. It's what do I GET, what do we GET. It's not what can I GIVE, what can we GIVE. I really hope you take the time to reflect on this, gain some perspective and get out of denial.
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Is it .......... Is it .......... that one ?