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Originally posted by galveston75
And that is actually sad to think so many live in fear of such a place. God only wants us to love him. Yes we do have to have a fear but it should be a healthy fear. He never created man to worship in the kind of fear that some religions teach.
It's not different then a parent making a child obey them because of some terrible consequences if they don' ...[text shortened]... e in that condition and to never exist again is very good for the future of us and our planet.
And that is actually sad to think so many live in fear of such a place.
It is wonderful that we have such assurance of salvation in Christ.
It is sad that the Jehovah Witness lives lacking this confidence because
of rejecting truth concerning the Word as God became flesh.
And the fear was TAUGHT out of the mouth of Jesus:
Luke 12:5 - "But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna, YES, I TELL YOU, FEAR THIS ONE." (my emphasis)
"And do no fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28)
It is indisputable that Jesus is teaching here about Whom it is right to fear.
And why? The greater fear should be rendered to His Father because His hand of punishment can go beyond what humans can do.
So tell no errors about this only meaning to be placed on the dumpster in Gehenna outside of Jerusalem because MAN CAN DO THAT. Jesus must be refereing to something which man CANNOT do.
God only wants us to love him. Yes we do have to have a fear but it should be a healthy fear. He never created man to worship in the kind of fear that some religions teach.
It is not good sign when Jehovan's Witnesses get cosy with Christians. This is to be unequally yoked.
I above indicated many verses which show God's love for man and for righteousness has the other side of His hatred for sin. I see no sign yet that those passages are taken seriously by the annhilationists.
God is not Barny the Dinosaur. And He will do what He says He will do to get every rebel to know that He is God IF they refuse to be saved.
"And they will know that I am the Lord ...". Damnation is not the threat of a despotic tyrant. It is the inecapable reality that all will know that beyond God, above God, beside God, behind God, other than God there is no ultimate authority. He is the King. And no being will not have that realization eventually forever.
It's not different then a parent making a child obey them because of some terrible consequences if they don't. If the parent loves them and earns their love and respect the child will give that back and in turn teach their offspring the same.
The Bible does not contain only one subject but many.
And the same apostle Paul who agrees with the warnings of perdition also says that the love of Christ contraints him to want to follow Jesus.
So the Gospel is not of one angle only but multifaceted and multisided. Paul said he was sent to preach "the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel" (Eph. 3:8)
You know that (jaywill, who I am) was able to write more positive things about the riches of Christ then you liked to take the time to read. When I speak about the unsearchable riches of Christ many posters complain that my posts are too long.
So we can say quite much about Christ without giving the impression that there is no other teaching in the Bible besides eternal punishment.
A parent would never punish their child with some horrible thing as burning them their whole life for simply being human and sinning.
As a Christian parent, I would at the appropriate time request that the child read the Bible for themselves.
I have confidence that the Holy Spirit will know what words to impart into their young hearts on salvation. I would never teach a young person only about the lake of fire. That would be absurd.
God is even greater with his love for us and would never dream of burning a human forever in some molten firey lake.
Satan is clever and would play on human natural sympathy.
The demons know that they are going to be tormented -
Matthew 8:28 - "And behold., they [demons] cried out, saing, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have you come here before the time to torment us ?"
The demons know a TIME is coming for their torment. They questioned the Son of God only was He beginning that time prematurely.
We can safely assume that the demons must be speaking of "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)
Of course I do not like RJHinds teach demons are angels of the devil. But both demons and the devils angels are headed for the eternal fire which is incidently also called "eternal punishment" in verse 46.
Some "goats" among human beings go to the place "prepared for the devil and his angels". That phrase suggests that the devil and his angels by that time have no yet been put there.
How tragic that some of Satan's dupes will have to preceed him into the place of punishment prepared for him.
So this Lake of Fire in the Bible is just a symbol of someone or something being done away with forever.
The passages in which Jesus said "Yea, fear Him" do not suggest that the fear is about a symbol only but the fearsome reality meant by the symbol of Gehenna.
Luke 12:5 - "But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna, YES, I TELL YOU, FEAR THIS ONE." (my emphasis)
You have no case to teach Jesus did not teach the fear of a firey punishment symbolic or not. And if I were a Christian I would be careful that a JW was agreeing with me on a erroneous teaching of the New Testament.
17 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipYes you are correct. We do not accept the trinity as a Bible teaching...And that is actually sad to think so many live in fear of such a place.
It is wonderful that we have such assurance of salvation in Christ.
It is sad that the Jehovah Witness lives lacking this confidence because
of rejecting truth concerning [b]the Word as God became flesh.
And the fear was TAUGHT out of the mouth of Jesus ...[text shortened]... JW was agreeing with me on a erroneous teaching of the New Testament.[/b]
17 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipYes it is. You say this scripture proves that Jesus, the Word is God himself. We have discussed this in length which I will not do again.Yes you are correct. We do not accept the trinity as a Bible teaching...
I didn't mention "the Trinity." The Jehovah's Witnesses reject [b]John 1:1,14.
It is not even necessary to mention the Trinity.[/b]
So it has everything to do with the trinity.
17 Apr 13
Originally posted by RJHindsOne answer only on this and no more.
Why did Christ tell his disciples to go and baptize in [b]The Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Do JW's obey this command?[/b]
We do everything that scripture says. You are the one who does nothing of that scripture. You are involved in no earthwide teaching work at all.
First you do not even use God's name which is Jehovah, a name that is widely accepted throughout the world.
Secondly you are completely confused as to who they even are in relation to each other, and third you have no idea what the Holy Spirit it.
We've been around and around on this and I will not discuss it with you at all.
17 Apr 13
Originally posted by galveston75The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Triune God. The Son is the second person of the Triune God. The Father is the first person of the Triune God. The Name that we have been given to call God is Yah, as in hallelu Yah. God's Name means "I AM" in English. Does that answer your question on what I know about the identity of God?
One answer only on this and no more.
We do everything that scripture says. You are the one who does nothing of that scripture. You are involved in no earthwide teaching work at all.
First you do not even use God's name which is Jehovah, a name that is widely accepted throughout the world.
Secondly you are completely confused as to who they even ar ...[text shortened]... y Spirit it.
We've been around and around on this and I will not discuss it with you at all.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!
17 Apr 13
Originally posted by RJHindsYep and nothing has changed.
The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Triune God. The Son is the second person of the Triune God. The Father is the first person of the Triune God. The Name that we have been given to call God is Yah, as in hallelu Yah. God's Name means "I AM" in English. Does that answer your question on what I know about the identity of God?
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!
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18 Apr 13
4 edits
Originally posted by Suzianne
[b]No, I think it is a far worse sin to put words into the mouth of God, to change the meaning of Scripture. The Bible itself cautions against this at the end of Revelation.
Rev. 20:15, however, is different. What is missing when the verse speaks of "whosoever was not found written in the book of life"? Like the other two verses, it says they will be "cast into the lake of fire". What is missing is the same reference to "for ever and ever" that highlights the other two verses. When compared side-by-side like this, the difference stands out and is unmistakable.[/b]
So you believe that those mentioned in verse 15 have only a temporary stay there in the lake of fire.
Its late now. I may not reply tonight.
As you asked above, "Don't you also have a sober caution within to not interpret it to mean the opposite of what it clearly SAYS ?" Yes, I do. THIS is what I was talking about when I mentioned "putting words into the mouth of God". I do not *assume* the words "for ever and ever" in the last verse, like you and others do.
I see. If you recall I said that I would not advize anyone to be so curious go to said lake of fire to find out if there will be a substantial difference between the experience of Satan, the Antichrist and the false prophet as compared to those mentioned in verse 15.
This I wrote to concede a glimmer of possibility that the PLACE is the same but the EXPERIENCE may be different. So I was cognizant of the mentioning of the PLACE ONLY being the same.
I went on to say, as it is written, not much solid evidence is provided that their experience could be different. One may only speculate that the PLACE, the lake of fire, is the same but these have a different experience than those mentioned in verse 10.
I have a book in my library called "Hell Under Fire - Modern Scholarship Reinvents Eternal Punishment" with essays discussing contemporary criticisms of the teaching of eternal punishment. The contributors to the articles are:
Gregory L Beal,
Daniel I. Block,
Sinclair B. Ferguson,
R. Albert Mohler Jr.,
Douglas J. Moo,
Christopher W. Morgan,
J.I Packer,
Robert A. Peterson,
Robert W. Yarbrough
I only mention this to indicate that the subject is not one that I have considered casually without regard to some scholarly objections.
I'll reply further maybe tomorrow. I would only say this tonight. I do believe that this lake of fire will be experienced by some believers temporarily.
Your argument seems to be you are sure that in the case of Revelation 20:15 these ones are cast temporarily to that place based upon the absence of the phrase "forever and ever" .
Lastly, you mention Jesus speaking the words of Matthew 10:28. I find it amazing that you bring this up. Well, let's take a look at the entire verse.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
What do you suppose this means? What could this *possibly* mean? Jesus speaks of fearing Him which is "able to destroy both soul and body". Both soul and body. Does this not sound like Annihilation to you? What would be the point of eternal torment "for ever and ever", if both the soul and body were destroyed?
We'll probably discuss this more tomorrow too.
Thanks for your reply.
18 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipYes I'll answer tomorrow too. But you do have some misunderstandings of what we believe. So I'll try to clear them up for you tomorrow...
[quote] Rev. 20:15, however, is different. What is missing when the verse speaks of "whosoever was not found written in the book of life"? Like the other two verses, it says they will be "cast into the lake of fire". What is missing is the same reference to "for ever and ever" that highlights the other two verses. When compared side-by-side like this, the di ...[text shortened]... We'll probably discuss this more tomorrow too.
Thanks for your reply.
But just remember that much of Revelation is symbolic and to start to understand it you have to see how the Bible speaks of these things earlier on.
And by piecing those thoughts and statements with Revelation it helps to understand what is being described in these strange statements.
But point blank "hell" is simply the grave or hole in the ground that we are placed in after death.
The "lake of fire" simply explains a complete destruction of many different things and these people or things will never be allowed to exist again. This is the "second death", no resurrection ever.
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18 Apr 13
7 edits
Let's take a look at three verses here.
Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Revelation 20:15
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
As I know you are well aware, Rev. 20:10 speaks of what will happen to Satan,
the Beast and the False Prophet. These are the chief antagonists of God, ramping up their rebellious efforts in the last days, and as such, I'd say they are completely deserving of eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, as the verse says, "for ever and ever".
Well, it is good that you feel that they are deserving. But whether you and I feel so or not God has told us their destiny.
So far then three personages you believe will undergo eternal torment. And our feeling about it is secondary. There are those who "feel" that even they are not deserving of this end. You are not one.
Rev. 14:11 speaks of those "who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name". It speaks of their torment in the Lake of Fire "for ever and ever". Again, a righteous end for those who cave in to the demands of the AntiChrist during the last days, denying God and Christ, resulting in untold numbers of Christian deaths.
So you believe the human beings mentioned in Rev. 11:14 share the same destiny as the three antagonists in 20:10. You see this as a righteous end.
Rev. 20:15, however, is different. What is missing when the verse speaks of "whosoever was not found written in the book of life"? Like the other two verses, it says they will be "cast into the lake of fire". What is missing is the same reference to "for ever and ever" that highlights the other two verses. When compared side-by-side like this, the difference stands out and is unmistakable.
Yes, that detail is not restated.
Would you also assume that the omission of "forever and ever" concerning the saved is indication that their eternal life is in question ?
For example - we are told in 22:5 - " ... for the Lord God will shine upon them; and they will reign forever and ever." But in verse 14 - "Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter by the gates into the city."
No mention of "forever and ever" in 22:5 causes you to disbelieve that their eternal destiny is being mentioned ?
No mention of "forever and ever" is mentioned here either - " ... they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits upon the throne will tabernacle over them. They will not hunger any more, neither will they thirst any more, neither will the sun beat upon them, nor any heat; For the Lord who sits in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and guide them to springs of water of life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Rev. 7:13-17)
Does the absence of the phrase "forever and ever" in the above passage likewise cause you to doubt that an eternal destiny is being told us here too?
How many other passages about the save might lack the phrase "forever and ever" I don't know. If you are consistent in your attention to the necessary presence of the phrase you probably should regard its omission as indicative of a temporary state being discribed.
Do you agree ? And if not why not?
As you asked above, "Don't you also have a sober caution within to not interpret it to mean the opposite of what it clearly SAYS ?" Yes, I do. THIS is what I was talking about when I mentioned "putting words into the mouth of God". I do not *assume* the words "for ever and ever" in the last verse, like you and others do.
The phrase is also ommitted in 21:7,8 -
"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. (v.7)
But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and all the false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimestone, which is the second death. (v.8)
According for you insistence usage of "forever and ever" to signal eternal destiny, neither verse has it. So you should assume not only that the state of those mentioned in verse 8 is temporary but the state of the sons of God in verse 7 is temporary as well.
The phrase is not mentioned concerning these sons of God either.
Do you do that and with the same force?
And if not I'd like to know why not.
Lastly, you mention Jesus speaking the words of Matthew 10:28. I find it amazing that you bring this up. Well, let's take a look at the entire verse.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
What do you suppose this means? What could this *possibly* mean? Jesus speaks of fearing Him which is "able to destroy both soul and body". Both soul and body. Does this not sound like Annihilation to you? What would be the point of eternal torment "for ever and ever", if both the soul and body were destroyed?
This passage along with Luke 12:5 is about why greater fear should be rendered to God than to man.
The reason is that God's punishing hand can go further than what man can do. Whereas men may bind me and throw me into the city dump, God Almighty has the authority and the power to do not just the same thing but more if He wants to.
I do not think the passages are about Annhilation at all. It is impossible for me to understand them that way.
If Jesus was speaking of having soul and body destroyed in the literal Gehenna dump outside of Jerusalem it would make no different whether man put you there or God did. In both cases the body and the soul would be destroyed.
But the point of the teaching is that AFTER man has done the utmost to damge another man, God can go further if He needs to. For this reason the GREATER level of fear should go to God.
Some older folks I knew use to say "The only way to get the fear of man out of you is to get the fear of God in you!" This, I think, is the succinct point in the teaching.
The destruction of the soul in the Gehenna that God can inflict is not the lose of BEING. It is the loss of WELLBEING.
Perhaps it comes out more clearly in the sister passage of Luke 12:5 -
"But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you fear Him."
Notice the words "AFTER ... killing". So Jesus is speaking about the existence of a person AFTER he has been physically killed. Compared to what man can do God's ability is greater. For the comparison starts this way -
"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do."
This indicates that the "Gehenna" into which God has authority to cast a soul is not simply the Jerusalem city dump. It is something more. It is definitely negative.
And it is not the bringing about of non being of the soul but rather ending the wellbeing of the soul. As we can see in the teaching the rich man and Lazarus in chapter 16 verses 19 - 31.
After the death of the physical bodies, Lazarus's soul was found in a comfortable place. The rich man's soul was found in a place where the well being of his soul was in bad shape - " ... I am in anquish in this flame" .
We do not need to know the science or the physics of this mysterious pair of fates. We do need to heed the general idea. Your soul and my soul may be touched by God beyond our physical death as He chooses.
Lastly, I would mention that on occasion God restricts human sympathy for He knows that sometimes the subtle enemy can lurk there.
"Your eye shall not pity ..." (See Deut. 19:13,21) NOT IN ALL CASES. But in some case God commanded His servants that their eye was not to pity the one judged.
Likewise in Luke 16 a gulf, a chasm had been establised between the comfortable souls and the tormented souls expressely - "so that those wanting to pass from here to you cannot, neither from thre to us may any cross over." (v.26)
The time of heartfelt pity, prayer and earnest petition for man is in this life while they have time to decide to be reconciled to God.
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19 Apr 13
2 edits
The "lake of fire" simply explains a complete destruction of many different things and these people or things will never be allowed to exist again. This is the "second death", no resurrection ever.
Govette comments on Luke 12:4,5
"Here Jesus bids the disciples rather cut off a right hand than be cast judicially into hell-fire. For this destroying of one member would be better than being destroyed body and soul in the fire. Here the perishing of the member cut off is not its non-existence, but the loss of its use and well-being. Better the suffering now arising from a hand cut off, than the misery of hell ! "
Robert Govett
It is true that the vanacular use of hell has become that of a firey punishment. Strictly speaking it is Hades or Sheol and even the dying Christian is going to hell or hades in that sense.
But the sense of dread that causes us to recoil at the mention of eternal damnation is the reaction that man is SUPPOSE to have from the word of God.
If the instruments of God's wrath are fearful you have had the right reaction as the Bible intended.
But the comforting word of salvation and safety is near us in our hearts and in our mouth says Paul -
"But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that is the word of faith which we proclaim,
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation.
For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in Him shall not be put to shame," " (Romans 10:8-11)
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23 Apr 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyMany people treat a Spirituality Forum just as a repository for all kinds of weird things.
[b]Curiosity Question: RHP's 'Spirituality Forum' Page One Contains Thirty Threads (conversations).
Twenty Eight Contain Almost as Many Topics; Two, the Risen Christ. Why Such an Imbalance?[/b]
Ie. Big Foot on Mars
All manner of zany, fightheaded ideas seem to find their way to a Forum like this.
23 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonship"Many people treat a Spirituality Forum just as a repository for all kinds of weird things"
Many people treat a Spirituality Forum just as a repository for all kinds of weird things.
Ie. Big Foot on Mars
All manner of zany, fightheaded ideas seem to find their way to a Forum like this.
... or because the majority of participants have Little (if 'Any'😉 Frame of Reference?